From the CBS Early Show Do you agree with this thought?

Barbara2 · 01-11-2011, 10:32 PM

This morning on the Early Show, one of the segments was titled "Michael Douglas Beats Throat Cancer." It sounds like he is doing very well, which is wonderful. (He did have stage 4 cancer.) They went on to discuss the fact that it will take some time (about 3 years) before they know if he has actually beaten the cancer and in the meantime he will probably visit the doctor about once a month.

My question is a comment made by Chris towards the end of the interview, (about 3:15 minutes into the interview if you care to watch) where he asked Dr. Phillips, "Throughout this whole process, he's talked about being a fighter and how this wasn't going to beat him. Does that type of positive energy and that positive outlook also help in recovery?"

Her answer: "A hundred percent, Chris. How you go into it is what you get out of it. He was deternined to beat this and from the look of it, he did." And she added a few more thoughts.

I remember a similar topic on the Her2 site, quite some time ago, regarding attitude and cancer survival. I believe I have read or maybe it was just someone's opinion, that if a cancer patient can be positive/hopeful, that this helps with the day to day enjoyment of life, but it probably doesn't actually determine whether or not the cancer returns. I remember some people commenting that if that were the case, it would put a tremendous burden on the patient, thinking that his/her attitude will make the difference.

What are your feelings on this? Do you agree with Dr. Phillips, in that "how you go into it is what you get out of it?"

Here's the segment:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?...in;contentBody

Debbie L. · 01-11-2011, 11:11 PM

>What are your feelings on this? Do you agree with Dr. Phillips, in that "how you go into it is what you get out of it?"

No, the short answer is that NO I do not agree, if we are talking about cancer behavior (as opposed to qol). I worship at the "this is a crap shoot" altar, and I reference Molly Ivens: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...201917,00.html

I'll await more comments before delving in deeper, but I stand ready to delve. I think there's pressure upon us to accept this nonsense, because it comforts those without cancer -- allowing them to believe that even if, god forbid, they should join our club, they'll still be in control of the outcome by maintaining that "positive attitude".

I take no personal credit for still being here. I know WAY too many wonderful, strong, loving, positive-thinking souls who are no longer here. They are no longer here NOT because they were not positive enough. They are no longer here because their disease was (crap shoot) just too virulent. On behalf of and in honor of those strong, positive-thinking, wonderful, loving souls -- I protest this brainwashing that encourages us to think that our thoughts can control cancer. Our thoughts can control our moments, and perhaps the moments of those who love us. But they cannot (alas) control cancer.

StephN · 01-11-2011, 11:26 PM

I have to concur with Debbie that this disease is FAR more complicated than "mind over matter" or some iteration of that cliche.

People ask me how I have managed to come out ahead in the stage IV cancer game, and I have to honestly say that I believe my disease was SIMPLE enough for the drugs to have the desired effect. The drugs I took were able to shut down my cancer, and keep it there to date.

Having attended several of the international cancer meetings in the past few years, I see how for every answer there are 2 or 3 more questions. The research is ongoing at the genetic level now, and that in itself should tell us how complex at the sub-microscopic level this disease is.

One thing that I heard LOUD and CLEAR at the recent San Antonio Breast Cancer Symposium is that breast cancer is actually SEVERAL diseases. That there are more "subclasses" identified all the time.

Lastly, I am reminded that we once had a rousing thread going here on the subject of "our immune systems listen to our thoughts" and it had to get shut down.

I believe in a strong spirit, but not to the extent that our spirits can overcome *anything* that attacks our bodies.

Gift · 01-12-2011, 12:33 AM

I do agree with StephN and would like to add;

Being positive could give our bodies some hormone that will produce immune for lives.
I am thinking of myself after one or two hours in gym, there was a feeling of being able to fly, being able to smile even with a dog barking fiercely.
To fight cancer, we intake lot and lot of poison ... leads to weaker body system. Now it's a question of which system could be stronger between your mind with great attitude VS your body with poison cocktails.

"Light up your face with gladness
Hide every trace of sadness
Although a tear may be ever so near
That's the time you must keep on trying
Smile, what's the use of crying?
You'll find that life is still worthwhile
If you just smile"

Gift (with smiling)

AlaskaAngel · 01-12-2011, 01:13 AM

If it were true, then how many would need to do treatment of any kind, as long as we thought positive? And why would children not survive all cancer, being among the most innocently hopeful and positive of us all?

I agree with Deb L and StephN.

AlaskaAngel

michka · 01-12-2011, 01:55 AM

Just think of our Angels who for many were positive and real warriors. Michka

Ellie F · 01-12-2011, 05:14 AM

Hi
I mostly agree with what has been already said, in that I don't believe positive thinking is the answer to curing any type of cancer.
One of the unresolved issues for me has always been the effect of stress (be it emotional or physical, psychological ) on the efficiency of the immune sysem.There is considerable research that charts the impact of stress on reducing the immune response and makes me wonder if some ppl are able to mount a more robust reponse to the cancer.
Some research I read showed that post surgery women who were able to psychologically face the disease mounted a more robust Natural killer cell response. Other research from Glasgow university was able to predict survival by measuring inflammatory substances in blood. As we know stress triggers inflammation.
Unfortunately we seem to have more questions than answer.
Ellie

whatz · 01-12-2011, 05:41 AM

I agree with all of ya'll :-). I do second Ellie that I have a sneaky suspicion that stress makes us more vulnerable and also believe that the reason for the vulnerability is a weakened immune system. That said...a positive attitude would technically reduce stress and therefore help in that aspect. Can it cure cancer by itself? I believe not(!) for all the reasons so eloquently stated in earlier posts.

Becky · 01-12-2011, 07:49 AM

There have been studies that show no correlation between attitude and survival. That said, I feel it can't hurt to be positive as it makes the time you have left on earth (be it a day or 100 years) that much more enjoyable. Even if cancer wins, you win too as the disease did not also take joy from your life and those around you.

Also, I would think that it does help somewhat and keep you healthier overall in mind and spirit. Depression makes you sick all over.

Hopeful · 01-12-2011, 08:02 AM

There have been some interesting articles that have studied the effect of both stress and loneliness and the changes they induce to our biology:

http://her2support.org/vbulletin/sho...eferrerid=1173

http://her2support.org/vbulletin/sho...eferrerid=1173

I don't think the absence of a positive attitude per se affects survival, but I do think that anything that induces an inflammatory response in the body runs counter to it.

Hopeful

Mary L · 01-12-2011, 08:44 AM

I think having a good attitude and attacking your cancer feeling you CAN beat it is better than being depressed and feeling sorry for yourself going through treatment. Does it cure cancer....no but it sure might help. Mary L

Lani · 01-12-2011, 09:34 AM

I remember reading years ago that stuidies is the medical literature have failed to show a difference in overall survival between those with positive fighting attitudes and those without as I understand it (leaving out those with absolutely depression who fail to get their treatment, whether radiation therapy of endocrine therapy--as much as they can tell the latter).I never bothered to pay mich attention as I thought it was difficult to quantify the former or the latter(let alone the last)

Just thought you might want to see what MedPage Today wrote about the Douglas pronouncement--

my comment--just like breast cancer, throat cancer comes in a lot of different varieties, so talking about statistics and response to treatment of throat cancer as a whole may not be appropriate. It depends on ithe biology of the specific subset.

here we go:

By Kristina Fiore, Staff Writer, MedPage Today
Published: January 11, 2011

After months of radiation and chemotherapy for late-stage throat cancer, actor Michael Douglas is tumor-free, he told NBC's "Today Show" viewers this morning.

Not a trace of the stage-IV, walnut-sized tumor at the base of his tongue could be detected on medical imaging, Douglas said.

That's a signal, researchers told MedPage Today and ABC News, of complete response to treatment.

Yet they caution that the 66-year-old Douglas is hardly out of the woods.

"We always hope that our treatments cure the patient, but the reality is that even in the absence of detectable disease, he is at risk for recurrence," Scott Strome, MD, chair of head and neck surgery at the University of Maryland in Baltimore, wrote in an e-mail.

It is typical for this type of cancer -- even at stage-IV -- to be in complete remission at this point, according to Gregory T. Wolf, MD, chair emeritus of the University of Michigan Hospitals in Ann Arbor.

Prognosis, however, depends significantly on the biology of the tumor.

Tongue-base cancers that are caused by human papillomavirus (HPV) infection "have excellent 'cure' rates [measured by five-year survival] in the range of 70% to 80%, regardless of tumor stage," Wolf said.

But those rates are diminished for patients whose cancer is likely tied to smoking and drinking.

Ted Teknos, MD, chair of head and neck surgery at Ohio State University Cancer Center in Columbus, said five-year survival for tumors related to smoking alone is about 30% to 40%.

Patients whose tumor is associated with a combination of HPV and smoking have cure rates somewhere in between those figures.

It is not clear whether Douglas' cancer was positive for HPV, but the actor has admitted to smoking and drinking rather heavily. If solely based on smoking and drinking, his risk of recurrence is about 50%, Wolf estimated.

The next step for the actor will be a follow-up scan in three months, which the MedPage Today sources say can provide a good idea about the possibility of a cure, but is by no means absolute. The greatest risk of recurrence is in the first two years.

Douglas had been receiving radiation and chemotherapy at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center in New York since September.

The actor has reported problems swallowing, a typical side effect of treatment as radiation has closed down salivary ducts. He also reported losing 32 pounds during treatment.

Christine Gourin, MD, professor of otolaryngology at Johns Hopkins University, said that while labeling Douglas as "cured" is at least five years off, this first step provides some good news.

"We don't know the future," she wrote in an e-mail, "but in the face of a complete response to treatment there is every reason to be optimistic."

This article was developed in collaboration with ABC News.

PinkGirl · 01-12-2011, 10:06 AM

You can't dismiss the role of a positive attitude ... but ... these kinds of comments drive me CRAZY ... look what it did to my hair ...

Sign me up for the Crap Shoot Society. How do you explain the dead
positive people and the living SOB's??? To me this is just another way
of blaming the patient ... this disease can take it's course regardless of
our attitudes.

That being said, I think stress puts added pressure on our bodies and
being happy and positive can't hurt ... but geez ... to say that Michael Douglas went into his treatments determined to beat the cancer ... so did I .. . celebrities shouldn't throw this crap in our faces .. it's not fair ... they aren't experts in anything ...

Joan M · 01-12-2011, 12:05 PM

My maternal grandmother lived to 96, dying in 2000, and she was a miserable complainer and worried about everything, and drove everybody crazy. She wasn't sick a day in her life until she was 95 1/2. So I'm not even sure whether constant stress even damages our immune system.

Overall, I think such a theory puts a lot of pressure on cancer patients by implying that positive thinking can help cure us. Conversely, that kind of theory can also inadvertently put the blame on the patient.

I'd rather go to my grave happy -- with or without cancer. And of course everybody has a bad day, myself included. And Pink, you're having a bad hair day.

Jaon

Ellie F · 01-12-2011, 12:41 PM

Joan
That's really intersting about your gran. As each tumour has it's own biology it's perhaps resonable to assume that the 'triggers' may be different also. While stress maybe an issue for one person it could not be for someone else.
I just wish they would hurry up and find the CURE for all of us

Ellie

suzan w · 01-12-2011, 05:14 PM

I agree with Steph, but I also thing that it can't hurt to have a good positive attitude (then people can stand to be around when you need them!!!) I have lost far too many dear friends, all with amazing stamins etc. to this horrid disease to think that mind over matter is the "cure"

krisvell · 01-12-2011, 06:29 PM

Of all the things my friends and family told me most was Oh! you're so positive. I bet that's why you're doing so well. I always doubted it but it kept my stress level down and got me to deal with the treatments. I knew it was going to take more than thinking away this cancer to stay in remission. It's a real crap shoot.

Kris.....

Jean · 01-12-2011, 09:25 PM

Interesting thread, let’s remember that Mr. Douglas is an ACTOR does anyone think he would come on national TV and complain, cry or show any fear? He is showing his game face and maybe even trying to help others by putting on a brave and positive front. Of course the man is
worried about his cancer dx.

While a positive attitude is good and does offer a better quality of living it does not cure cancer.
What I have always found extremely fascinating are the men women and children that survived the Nazi prison camps. Some women even giving birth during their imprisonment.. The will to survive under the worst possible conditions is an interesting subject, beating the worst odds.
Luck does play its role and our own body chemistry.

A perfect example of luck is the recent horrific shootings in Tucson those who survived and the poor souls who lost their life. In short there are no guantees in life. You can be a strong healthy person and lopse your life in a moment to a madmen. So – what is the take away…walk around being an angry, depressed or just plain negative and miserable person? Or enjoy each day with the people you love and those who matter in your life. Cancer has taught us to appreciate each day.

Jean

Jackie07 · 01-12-2011, 09:44 PM

It's not a coincidence that 'positive attitude' is listed on the very top of the 'Cancer Treatment Myths' link of the Mayo Clinic site.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/can...3/METHOD=print

There is proof, however, that physical activity increases the release of endorphins which improves our mood:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorphin

This entry validates the healing power of a certain type of endorphin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta-endorphin

Boosting the immune system[citation needed]
Slowing the growth of cancer cells [4]
Promoting feeling of well-being
Increasing relaxation

Gerri · 01-12-2011, 09:56 PM

Yep, it's a crap shoot. Don't we all wish it were as simple as mind over matter?

While I don't believe that a positive attitude plays any part in curing cancer, I do believe that it can have a huge impact in helping us and our loved ones deal with the challenges we face.