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Old 05-16-2006, 05:29 PM   #21
BEVIE
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Has anyone seen studies that show the percentage where early stage HER2, ER/PR positive have recurrences? I haven't come across very many women that like myself are triple positive early stage that have had recurrences, Could that be because we were not likely to recurred in the first place or is it because of hormonal treatment and being as they really just started testing HER2 about the time I was DX 5 or 6 yrs ago the tamoxifen, arimidex, etc. still in our systems delaying recurrence? I know that they retest new tumors or mets to see if they are HER2 but I wonder how many of these were triple positive?
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Old 05-16-2006, 08:14 PM   #22
Becky
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Hi Angel

I am not sure that tamoxifen works better than an AI in strongly positive ER/PR cancer. It has been proven that AIs work better. It just that when you compare studies of:

1. tamoxifen in ER/PR+ vs ER+/PR- - the women who are positive for both do better. However, the probability that the women who are PR- are probably also Her2+ or positive for another Her pathway is most likely high. Therefore, do they do worse because of tamoxifen resistance (really just cross signaling) or because if they were just ER+, it doesn't work as well. My opinion on this is that if a ER+/PR- woman took tamoxifen and she was only that and not Her2+ or Her1+ or anything else, tamoxifen should work just as well as it does in a ER/PR + woman.

2. comparing AIs in the same population as above. There was only one study that compared Arimidex to ER/PR+ women to ER+/PR- women. It would make sense that Arimidex might be more beneficial in a woman that is only ER+ as AIs disrupt estrogen manufacture in the adrenals and fat cells. Currently, there is no known disruption of progesterone.

That said, it is also well known that being PR+ only (and ER-) is not enough for a true cancer to occur. Known literature states that PR will cause a cell to grow (in size and to maturity) but it cannot, by itself, cause it to reproduce uncontrollably. Therefore, one has to assume that a woman who is PR+ but ER- has another driver for uncontrolled cell division. For some of us who may be PR+ but ER-, we know that driver is Her2. For others, it is Her 1 or 3 or other things not measured or discovered yet.

Also, being + for PR is supposed to be a good progostic factor but I really don't think enough research has been done on the PR to truly determine its related function to breast cancer and the determination of its early loss when the Her pathway is involved (as many at least maintain higher ER+ levels than PR+ levels in Her2 disease).

I think anyone who is highly ER/PR needs to be on an antihormonal regardless of Her pathway status. What needs to be assessed is which ones are the best ones to be on and more work needs to be done in this area for premenopausal women who are also Her2+ (especially if they are not highly positive and have lost the positive nature of the progesterone receptor).

Sorry this is so longggg.

Kind regards

Becky
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Old 05-17-2006, 08:09 AM   #23
AlaskaAngel
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(throwing yet another wrench in here....)

(I wonder, since Pak1 affects ER, I wonder if it affects PR and/or HER2 at all, or if PR and/or HER2 affect Pak1.):

Increased protein expression may explain tamoxifen resistance
Reuters Health
Posting Date: May 16, 2006

Last Updated: 2006-05-16 16:00:20 -0400 (Reuters Health)

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Pak1 (p21-activated kinase-1), a protein that activates estrogen receptors (ER) and localizes in the nucleus of breast tumors, appears to induce tamoxifen resistance in ER-positive cancers, investigators report.

Many patients with ER-positive tumors either do not respond to tamoxifen treatment or develop resistance to the agent. Pak1 is known to phosphorylate proteins, including ER-alpha. Studies have suggested that Pak1 phosphorylation of ER-alpha activates the receptor and modulates its response to estrogens and antiestrogens.

Dr. Goran Landberg, from Lund University in Malmo, Sweden, and associates evaluated Pak1 and ER-alpha expression in 403 primary breast tumors from premenopausal patients who had been randomly assigned to tamoxifen or no tamoxifen following surgery and radiation therapy. They report their findings in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute for May 17.

The researchers assessed Pak1 levels in ER-alpha-positive tumor tissue by immunohistochemical staining with a polyclonal antibody against Pak1. Their results showed that 19% of tumors had high cytoplasmic Pak1 expression, and 13% were positive for nuclear Pak1 staining.

The investigators observed that lobular breast cancers were more likely to be Pak1 negative (78%) compared with ductal (50%) or medullary (30%) breast cancers. Pak1 staining was also associated with higher histologic grade and increased tumor cell proliferation, indicating a more malignant phenotype.

Dr. Landberg's group also found that among patients who were treated with tamoxifen, tumors with the lowest expression of Pak1 had longer recurrence-free survival than patients not treated with tamoxifen.

In contrast, among patients with high expression of Pak1, tamoxifen had no effect on recurrence-free survival.

In the untreated control group, which included both ER-negative and ER-positive tumors, Pak1 staining intensity in the cytoplasm of the nucleus was not associated with outcome.

"Our results raise the possibility that premenopausal breast cancer patients whose tumors overexpress Pak1 most likely will not respond to tamoxifen and may need to be offered alternative endocrine treatment," Dr. Landberg's team maintains.

They also suggest that "therapies that target Pak1 expression or activity may therefore represent a strategy to increase the endocrine treatment response in breast cancer."

In a related editorial, Dr. V. Craig Jordan, from Fox Chase Cancer Center in Philadelphia, further discusses the ramifications of the phosphorylation network in cancer cells.

He believes that knocking out Pak1 activity would not overcome tamoxifen resistance, but that "a combined attack at multiple upstream targets would be more likely to succeed."

"Regardless," he concludes, "the clinical correlations reported by Holm et al. indicate that packing tumor cell nuclei with Pak can perturb tamoxifen's action. The tumor, once 'Paked up,' has no alternative but to grow."

J Natl Cancer Inst 2006;98:657-659,671-680.
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Old 05-17-2006, 08:24 AM   #24
Becky
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Angel

I like that last sentence - "perturb tamoxifen" - very interesting (and probably incorrect) choice of words.


In June we will do the endocrinology chat. After ASCO, and then I will be more ready to do a good job of it.

I am off the board for the next week or so. Going to Dallas to see my niece graduate (taking my mom along). Just figured I'd mention it so it doesn't seem rude that I'm not answering anyone.

Becky
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Old 05-17-2006, 08:34 AM   #25
AlaskaAngel
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I like that idea! Thanks, Becky for all your efforts to help everyone. Hope the trip is a good one for you.

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