Michael Moore Film - Sicko

[Adriana Mangus]

Maria: I never heard such a thing about Switzerland. Are you sure it was not another country..?..

My husband came home and untied my arms. So be it!

Two things are generally used to judge a health care system:

The cost per capita to provide insurance to all citizens.

The results of those costs in terms of improvement in citizen health, longevity, and quality of life.

The organizations that rate the health care in various countries base their analysis primarily on the above two factors, although they use other factors as well.

We are rated 37 in the world based on these factors. Our costs are much higher than anywhere in the world, per capita, yet we have 45 million people without insurance. (These are facts, not opinions.)

In addition, our individual experiences and our family's experiences in judging national health care systems (mine included, so I'll do my mea culpa right now) are only relevant as they apply to us. One of Moore's problems in "Sicko," in my view, is that he does what lots of us are doing here, he just uses a larger base--twenty thousand experiences in his case. When the World Health Organization comes up with its ratings, it uses entire populations to substantiate its ratings.

And to correct another misunderstanding. Cuba does not have a highly rated medical system. How could it? It's been under embargo for some forty years. It is, in fact, two slots below ours in its rating--39 I believe. Moore used Cuba for one reason only, to stir up talk and controversy. And he's been very successful. But, for me, that is one of the major weaknesses in his film. But as Vicki pointed out, controversy does get things done.

As I said earlier, I have wonderful care here, under Medicare, which is, by the way, a universal health care system based on age. So I'm taken care of. My concern is that other people are not taken care of. I wish only that everyone, not just me and mine, could have good and affordable health care. And if that makes me some type of radical, so be it!

[StephN]

Sorry this is a bit long - but several experiences to mention.
My husband went to see this movie while I was out of town with my mother. He said that I really should go. His opinion was not that our way is bad or good, just that Moore is right in saying it could use improvement.

Regarding health care in France. My husband's mother and stepfather had a lot of care there so we are quite familiar. One thing no one has pointed out is that they prescribe TONS of meds (drugs) there and the patients are often quite overloaded with too many. When my mother-in-law was there her blood pressure acted up more than usual and she was given a whole raft of drugs. By the time we got her out of the hospital in south of France and back here, she was basically rummy and we thought she had a stroke or something. I went with her to her usual doc here at a large local HMO. He doctors were appalled at what all she was taking - including powerful sleeping pills, to which she was addicted. They weaned her off over half of those drugs and substituted some that worked better in her case. She became her "old self" after a few weeks of far fewer pills.

On the other hand, I have a friend in Paris who has been getting breast MRIs for years as she is high risk for breast cancer. So far none. They also do excellent work with aging or failing eyes if you find the right "professor" and that person will treat.

But we have been hearing complaints for years now that one has to actually PAY something for certain medical care or procedures in France. They have been slowly shifting some of the expense to the people getting the actual care - so it is NOT always "free." These complaints also come from some of our friends who have been forced by the French government into retirement around age 60 or younger. They are amazed that my hubby still works - but we have our own business. No time for boules (baci ball) in the afternoons here!

Now take RUSSIA. My hubby was on a visit in the Russian far east and fell on some steps cutting his hand deeply on a raised piece of metal. His cousin took him to the nearest clinic (by hitchhiking), which would not treat him. He had to get to the hospital. Here his cousin got in the lineup to sign him in and he settled for a long wait with his bleeding hand. Just then a surgeon passed and hubby jumped up and, speaking in Russian, showed his hand. The doc took hubby to his private office and brought in what he needed to clean the wound and stitch it up. To top that off they only charged him ONE DOLLAR! And the doc would not take anything. When he went for a dressing change 2 days later they again charged one dollar. This was about 5 years ago. The cousin said that the normal Russians would not be charged, but also would have to wait their turn!

Seems to me that all of us have various tales of medical care from many places, and could put together a documentary to rival Sicko. No one has talked about Sweden, which is supposed to have an exemplary medical system.

[MCS]

Let me make clear that this is only one experience. my uncle's. but it is a true story on the Switzerland. His wife likes to be treated in Frankfurt, not Switzerland.

Anything on Germany.

my cousin travels international. he's one of those big wig marketing vps. this is just to emphasize that he has available more than me a commoner traveling. Now he was very sick in Barcelona and could not even get antibiotics from a doctor. had to wait to come back into the states to get taken care of.

i went to australia a few years ago, my experience was not good. I was only able to get some antihistamine for my daughter after searching every pharmacy in town and one pharmacist taking pity on me - an american without any prescription for benadryl. the national paper at that time, 2003, had several editorials critizing their universal care. I know there are several aussies on board and know better than me on whatever is the right info.

so different countries, different experiences

MCS ( maria)

[StephN]

Our LEGAL SYSTEM and how it affects the price of all kinds of things.

The humongous awards that judges and juries give out does not help our system equalize at all. Billions are paid out every year in the "good old USA" that would never be allowed anyplace else that I am aware of. The lawyers fatten up on this system, not the poor uninsured souls who might as well die in a cave somewhere.

[sarah]

The first time I got cancer, I lived and worked in the USA - I'm American, and even with so-called great insurance, my husband had to fight a lot to get me what I needed and I'm not convinced I got the best advice although the hospital and surgeons were great.
The second time was in France - what a difference! immediately they said since you're going to have chemo and radiation and have cancer we'll take everything to do with this disease into account and pay for it 100%.
If someone's friend is complaining about the taxes (who doesn't) they are probably making a lot of money and aren't being treated for a deadly disease.
As a retired person living by chance and choice in France and now having gotten sick again, I'm glad and grateful I'm here.
I don't think I could afford to move back to the USA because of my health situation.
Now my husband needed very delicate surgery on his feet and he paid the specialist 500 euro which is considered extremely expensive here for the surgery on both feet and then paid 30% of the hospital stay (2 days) - the hospital was 43 euro for a 2 person room and meals in a private clinic. He also had to pay 30% for the prescriptions which also would be considered a minor cost in the USA.
I agree they used to over prescribe drugs but don't we all always ask "hwat's this for and is it absolutely necessary?"
And here there is no economic level of difference between someone wealthy or poor or unemployed - it takes a lot of the stress out of being ill to know at least you don't have to fight an insurance company. (that doesn't mean you may not have to fight for care outside of the usual protocol). I've been receiving Herceptin for over 3 years now and hope to continue.
by the way, the USA newspapers, rated France #1 for health care!
that said, the USA has great medical research and doctors (my father, a doctor worked there) and doctors are used to patients checking everything out on the web! Here, they know their foreign patients do!
I had a French friend with cancer who hated her doctors in Paris but loved her doctors in LA!

The most important thing though is that you, the patient, believe you are getting the best medical treatment possible regardless of price or income or insurance.
Stay strong and keep up the good fight.

[sarah]

Another point, the US spends twice as much on health care as Canada or Europe - why when everyone is supposedly paying for their own insurance? why - because too many people don't have insurance and when they want to see a doctor they go to the emergency room or when they do go, they are so ill, it's more expensive. That's why the US is looking at some alternative - because it's too expensive for the government! and who pays - we do of course. It's just more hidden - higher drug costs, etc. etc...
Yes we have low taxes but then add in the medical insurance and drug and doctor costs and administrative costs and what really are the savings. We pay one way or another.
Also doctors pay such high malpractice insurance that many highly educated people who would have gone into the medical profession in the past, are looking at other more profitable careers which is why more and more doctors in the US come from outside the US. My favorite US oncologist is originally from Cuba! I'm in no way suggesting that foreigners becoming doctors in the US is bad however when they are Chinese for example there are cultural differences and they may not be as warm and cuddly as our old fashioned doctors.
I also think we have to ask ourselves are we a compassionate country that cares about those with lesser incomes or are we a selfish one that only cares if we have the means to take care of ourselves and that everyone should look after themselves? Obviously we have to care for ourselves and family but can we spare something for others? As a doctor's daughter, I was brought up to think of and help others and I know I don't do enough.
In France health care is a right just as in the US, you're innocent until proven guilty. There are a lot of things wrong here but from personal experience, I think the French medical system is pretty near perfect.
How would you feel about your illness if you didn't have health insurance?
I have not seen Moore's film yet but intend to. Of course he's got a point of view - don't we all? But obviously he makes you think about things whether or not you agree with anything he says.
If even the government thinks something needs changing in health care, it probably means it does.

[MJo]

I honor everyone who works hard and stands on their own two feet, but one day I may need help, so I will extend help while I can. I don't want to live in a country like the third world countries where the well off who "stand on their own two feet" can afford health and people who can't afford to pay for their health care die. That may be the Libertarian ideal, but I hope most Americans don't think that way.

Thanks Sarah and Mjo,

You both express so well the real point behind Moore's film, when you get behind the hype.

'Care for others as you would care for yourself.'

I think we do, and this health care system of ours is just an anomaly that will change soon. Look at all the caring that goes on within this board.

Keep caring, Grace

[StephN]

Anyone notice the cafafle (sp?) transpiring on CNN over Moore and this movie?? I have not seen all of it - just snipits. Seems that Dr. Sanjay Gupta, the CNN inhouse doc, has come under fire for his "Reality Check" segment on Wolf Blitzer's program.

Guess the debate rages on - and way beyond our little corner of the net here! And hopefully that is a good thing and the discussion will not die without some movement toward change.