A must watch - Risk Breast cancer and vitamin D 50-80% risk reduction

[Mary Jo]

As of stated before in other threads. My 2008 Vit. D levels were at 32.....(or 31 - don't remember exactly right now) I increased my Vit. D3 amount to 4000 i.u.'s - not to mention what, if any, is in my Omega 3 (fish oil that I take) and this years level was at 62.

[Laurel]

I just read this thread through, having watched the lst post's videos a few days ago. Man, what an interesting dialog! Absolutely fascinating! Many thanks to all who have shared their knowledge. Ted, hope to hear more from you in the future.

[Ted_Hutchinson]

Well if you really don't mind perhaps I could comment on Mary Jo's post

2008 Vit. D levels were 32. she took 4000 i.u.' reached 62 and lives in Sheboygan,

This is a fairly typical response and 62 is a reasonable level for someone with a chronic condition or a previous BC diagnosis to aim for.

Sheboygan, is around latitude 43 and will have a vitamin D3 low winter so while 4000iu is fine for summer maybe Mary Jo could think about raising intake to 6000iu from Oct through to the end of Feb.

I mentioned Vieth's new paper a couple of posts back and he raises the idea that fluctuations in Vitamin D status may allow periods for an imbalance to occur
When 25(OH)D declines, the ratio of 1-hydroxylase/24-hydroxylase [CYP24] must increase to maintain tissue 1,25(OH)2D at its set-point level. The mechanisms that regulate this paracrine metabolism are poorly understood. I propose that delay in cellular adaptation, or lag time, in response to fluctuating 25(OH)D concentrations can explain why higher 25(OH)D in regions at high latitude or with low environmental ultraviolet light can be associated with the greater risks reported for prostate and pancreatic cancers.

What happens in prostate cancer also often occurs in BC and We see here Vitamin D-24-hydroxylase[CYP24] in benign and malignant breast tissue and cell lines.

Nothing is ever simple and there that other factors are also concerned in the regulation of CYP24 Human CYP24 catalyzing the inactivation of calcitriol is post-transcriptionally regulated by miR-125b.

So bear in mind this is very recent information, Vieth's work is only at the HYPOTHESIS stage, but most here don't have the luxury of waiting xx years for it to be confirmed.

If Vieth is right that falling levels of 25(OH)D can lead to a temporary excess of CYP24 the simple answer is to keep 25(OH)D levels high and stable. There isn't a great deal of cost involved nor is there any risk as we know 10,000iu/daily is safe even where ample sun exposure is also present.
However Dr Davis working in Wisconsin find his female patients generally require 5000iu/daily to stay around the 60ng level so if Mary Jo took 4000iu summer and 6000iu winter she would average 5000iu/d over the year and has a greater chance of preventing the winter 25(OH)D dip which you see is typical for UK adults.

This new information should encourage people to take moderate (equivalent to daily full body sun exposure) amounts of Vitamin D DAILY rather than larger amounts monthly or even larger amounts 2/3 monthly.
The graph Dr Davis reproduces here shows using Vitamin D2 produces a greater swing in 25(OH)D (deeper falls in level) so to achieve a steady state ONLY CHOLECALCIFEROL Vitamin D3 should ever be used, even if you can get D2 prescribed from your doctor it's not worth using it.

Rembering that to prevent an excess of CYP24 the aim is to prevent sudden changes in 25(OH)d those booking a winter holiday in the tropics may want to to plan ahead. Consider possibly increasing vitamin D3 (+2000iu) intake over a couple of the weeks prior to departure, NOT taking D3 while you are in the tropics sunbathing on the beach, BUT restarting D3 supplementation before the flight home and also using an effective amount (5000~8000iu) in the weeks after your winter break.

Fish oil was mentioned earlier and although fish oil works synergisticly with D3 it's only cod liver oil that comes with SOME (usually just 200~400iu) vitamin d3. Cod liver oil also contains vitamin A and a little NATURAL vitamin A works in conjunction with D3 but too much synthetic vitamin A is antagonistic to the action of D3 so you have to be certain that the Vit A in your CLO hasn't been standardised.

UK readers may need reminding we live 600miles further North than Mary Jo. Our UK/EU milk is NOT vitamin d fortified, Most of our breakfast cereals are NOT vit d fortified. So because we don't have the same background level from UVB or even from diet our daily intakes need to be higher to achieve the same response that Mary Jo has achieved also the additional amount required to prevent levels dipping overwinter will need to be started September and go through to March rather than Oct~Feb.

Only regular 25(OH)D testing though will provide the certainty that you have got your 25(OH)D around 60ng 150nmol/l and understand what your summer/winter intakes need to be to keep steady around that level.

[AlaskaAngel]

One of the effects of chemotherapy is a reduction in testosterone level in both sexes. The loss happens with aging, even without cancer and cancer treatment. So the need for vitamin D is all the greater for those who have been through treatment, because we have even lower testosterone levels than those who never had cancer and chemotherapy.

Testosterone supplementation may be important for more than just beneficial effects on libido, but my point is primarily just to explain why it is that our need for additional vitamin D is so important.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=2680613

AlaskaAngel

P.S. I do use a low-dose testosterone supplement .

Is it possible that one may not absorb vit. D? I live in South Florida, worked many years outside without sunscreen and still diagnosed w/breast cancer. My grandfather was a farmer, exposed to sunshine out in the fields most of his life, he dies of brian cancer, my mom, spent most of her days at the beach without sunscreen and diagnosed w/breast cancer at age 51. My family and myself, exposed to plenty of sunshine in South Florida without sunscreens and yet so much cancer! I was Brac-1 negative. Her-2 very positive and at time of diagnosis was declared deficiant in vitiman d levels. My Conclusion: Vitamin D levels meant nothing to me in terms of getting cancer, unless, there is a proven reason why I didn't absorb it, however, I'm now supplementing just to insure a reaccurance doesn't manifest itself but, we can speculate and support facts all we want, there's still nothing solid about vitamin d and cancer prevention.

[R.B.]

Unregistered, I am sorry to hear of your family history and cancer.

Please do watch the videos and check the links. The liver specialist who blogged on vitamin D is based in Florida and finds many of his patients are vitamin D deficient.

There are biological reason why Vit D could pay a part in protecting against cancer and the evidence it has a role in a number of diseases is growing.

[Ellie F]

Hi Ted
I note that you asked if the vit d message is getting through in the UK. I can only report my own experience of being treated at a major British oncology centre. The resounding answer is NO. Another difficulty is getting vit d levels checked here as most oncologists don't see any benefit.
Do you reside in England?
I found your posts and RB's post very interesting. I think you are right about synergistic action, after all our bodies are eco-systems. It amazes me that oncs are not generally more enthusiastic as they are convined about synergy between drugs but not natural substances( though a number of drugs originate from plant sources originally.)
Ellie

Thanks R.B., could you provide the blog you have mentioned about the studies showing vit.d deficiencies in people who live in sunny South Florida?

[Ted_Hutchinson]

studies showing vit.d deficiencies in people who live in sunny South Florida?

Vitamin D Deficiency and Seasonal Variation in an Adult South Florida Population

Low Vitamin D Status despite Abundant Sun Exposure

Not just in USA though
Vitamin D deficiency in rural girls and pregnant women despite abundant sunshine in northern India.

[Ted_Hutchinson]

Another difficulty is getting vit d levels checked here as most oncologists don't see any benefit.

Which is why I like to post links to the postal 25(OH)D service offered by the charity Grassrootshealth D Action
$40 is around £24.50 at the moment so it's not that excessive

The other difficulty is obtaining effective strength D3 a years supply of oilbased gel caps $14.98 £9.20 +2.5p/daily so it's not going to prove an expensive exercise. If you haven't used IHERB before here's a $5 discount code WAB666 there are other codes online if you search. but the best oil based gel cap vitamin d 3 you can find in the UK is Vitamin D3 2,500iu - 100 Soft Gelatin Capsules - Jarrow Formulas® Ref: HI-D2500 Price: £16.80 33.6p/daily for 5000iu

If you really don't want to import from the USA then these are probably the cheapest UK source as far as I am aware. If anyone knows better then please let me know as I am aware some people dislike buying from the USA although I don't know why, takes about the same time and costs only a fraction of UK prices. I do live in the UK but find Iherb just as good but generally cheaper. than our online providers such as Heatlhspan/Zipvit/Simply Supplements.

Based on these results, we hypothesize that dietary components, such as omega3PUFAs and Vitamin D, have the potential to delay the progression of prostate cancer cells to an aggressive and un-treatable state. If it works for prostate cancer it may also work for breast and there are plenty of good reasons for improving your omega 3<> omega 6 ratio anyway.

[Ellie F]

Thanks Ted
I will certainly get my level checked by post now.
I find importing from America very straightforward and have done this on many occasions. Generally it arrives as quickly as when I order fro the UK.
Ellie

[Ted_Hutchinson]

Is it possible that one may not absorb vit. D?

Sure I've put some links on another post showing this happens. If you can stand MERCOLA then watch Shocking Update -- Sunshine Can Actually Decrease Your Vitamin D Levels for one explanation. But it's not entirely that simple. Our inflammatory status may not only affect the rate of use of D3, it's absorption from the surface of the skin but also it's actual metabolism on the skin. So it's only by regular25(OH)D testing that you can be sure how your body actually responds to either UVB, supplements or both.

I live in South Florida, worked many years outside without sunscreen and still diagnosed w/breast cancer.

No one is suggesting that raising vitamin d status to @55ng/mL will prevent all cases of BC. Only that those with higher levels have a lower rate of incidence and those diagnosed/treated when levels are high generally have a better prognosis.

Remember Vitamin D synthesis on the skin is a heat driven self limiting process.Good description of what happens here
Previtamin D3 is produced very rapidly and accumulates in the skin. Its conversion to vitamin D3 is a much slower, heat dependent process. One might expect huge quantities of preD3 to build up, but this does not happen. This is because preD3 is also sensitive to ultraviolet light up to 325nm; a proportion is converted quite rapidly into two biologically inactive products, lumisterol3 and tachysterol3. These also accumulate in the skin.......However, should excess vitamin D3 build up in the skin - if, for example, more is produced than the binding protein can remove - ultraviolet light breaks this down, as well, into three new substances: two suprasterols and 5,6 trans-vitamin D. This latter product does have some biological activity; the others are believed to be inert

My grandfather was a farmer, exposed to sunshine out in the fields most of his life, he dies of brian cancer, my mom, spent most of her days at the beach without sunscreen and diagnosed w/breast cancer at age 51. My family and myself, exposed to plenty of sunshine in South Florida without sunscreens and yet so much cancer!

These sound very much like people spending too much time under the sun. At your latitude the skin color of the Indigenous people would have provided adequate protection from long exposures but for Caucasian skins they need short unprotected full body sun
exposure then cover up or go indoors.
This calculator will enable you to work out a safe time however be aware that awareness of the need for higher vitamin d intakes has moved on since 2005 and you may have to adjust the calculator to ensure you are getting 5000iu/daily not just 1000iu.

there's still nothing solid about vitamin d and cancer prevention.

I think cancer specialists will be the last to acknowledge the proven link. It's human nature not to want to accept your role in perpetuating dangerously misguided information. Cancer UK have in my opinion been responsible for bad advice leading to the rises in cancer incidence over the years particularly with their advice against UVB exposure. They are shifting their ground somewhat but still have way to go.

It's a bit like the bankers and the bonus culture leading to financial meltdown. Do we see a banking industry that has accepted they made mistakes and have changed their ways, or are they still trying to perpetuate a culture that provides huge financial rewards for themselves?

There is absolutely no money to be made from vitamin D3 usage. No one can patent it, no one can make major profits from it's use.
If spending 2.5p daily on 5000iu/daily vitamin D3 prevents cancer it's going to cost a lot of financial consequences to the drug industry that will seriously impact on health professionals careers and financial rewards.

We are as likely to see the cancer industry embracing vitamin d3 as we are seeing the banking industry embrace a bonus free culture.

[Ted_Hutchinson]

I find importing from America very straightforward and have done this on many occasions. Generally it arrives as quickly as when I order fro the UK

For newbies the only problem is order value.
Above £18 order value UK customs charges 15% duty.
That would not be major problem as 15% of £20 is only £3
but our UK post office imposes a handling charge of £8 to collect the £3

So you need to check your order value is under £18 if possible before you confirm the order. I've only been caught out a few times but it is irritating when it happens.

The alternative is to try to increase the order singificantly so the customs duty + handling charge are outweighed by the savings on the supplements you have bought.

[R.B.]

Unregistered

Re Florida link. I read it in Dr Ts blog

http://nephropal.blogspot.com/search/label/vitamin%20d

[R.B.]

Thanks Ted for some great links.

Dr Mercola's suggestion that it take two days to absorb, and will be washed off with soap is thought provoking.

The Dr Mercola link is worth listening to.

Cats know this and are not known for taking showers, and get theirs from licking their coats.

A question that occurs to me is what effect do skin moisturising products have on both the ability of the skin to make vit D and the absorption of it.

Oils in moisturisers could dilute D and abstract it by increasing the absorption by clothing etc.

How much vitamin D gets rubbed off by clothing?

Apparently Ted Hutchinson DOES have a financial link to iHerb. He was banned from the board at the link below.

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes-f...php?f=1&t=5290

Thank you, Ted, even if you may be trying to make a profit. I appeciate any and all information and process it like I wish. I am unregistered because that's the only way I can post. Last year, when I joined and thereafter, this site will not recognize my e-mail, so I've been content just lurking. I am the unregistered lurker from South Florida, not the unregistered from the post above who obviously doesn't want to be known. I do find your information interesting as well as R.B's.

[R.B.]

In defence of Teds posts there are some excellent links, from some notable institutions. I have at various points in time searched extensively on the subject and not found for example the University of California videos.

It takes considerable time to build up the sort knowledge he appears to have, and well argued post do not happen by themselves but take a considerable amount of time.

The link he gives does appear to offer excellent value. Ted has not pushed it extensively and has offered an alternative. I have no idea whether he gets a very small commission from iherb or not, and as the product appears to offer very good value personally cannot get very excited either way. If Ted was trying to bring our attention to an expensive product for which there were other better and cheaper options on the market I would feel indignant.

This is another company who are well known for value and quality nutritional products and they are a little more expensive for a similar product, and I have no relationship with them beyond being an occasional customer.

http://www.vitacost.com/productResul...tt=vitamin%20d

I hope the Ted continues to post here as it is invaluable to have current up-to-date and relevant trials brought to us rather the having to go and find them which I can assure you can be extremely time-consuming.


PS The possibility that Vit D is a factor in autism is being seriously discussed. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17920208

[R.B.]

I woke up with this thread on my mind this morning. I am not endorsing Ted's lack of disclosure if true, and sadly it appears that it is. I have just searched the code WAB666 and it appears Ted has been very busy indeed. There are pages and pages of his posts to sites looking at the vitamin D issue. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c...&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

I suppose he is a microcosm of the way our market driven world works, but that does not make me feel any better.

He has brought valuable information but his lack of disclosure has unjustifiably tainted information from quality institutions.


This is a link to UCTV in case anybody is beginning to wonder if they are a whacky fringe broadcaster.


http://www.uctv.tv/about/


Launched in January 2000, University of California Television (UCTV) is a non-commercial channel featuring 24/7 programming from throughout the University of California, the nation’s premier research university made up of ten campuses, three national labs and affiliated institutions.

UCTV embraces the core missions of the University of California – teaching, research, and public service -- through quality, in-depth television that brings to life the tremendous range of knowledge, culture and dialogue generated on UC’s diverse campuses. Through its powerful reach on satellite, cable and the web, UCTV transports this knowledge far beyond the campus borders and into the homes and lives of millions of viewers around the globe.

[Ted_Hutchinson]

Everyone who uses IHERB gets a reward code.
Sharing your reward code with others means not only do they get a $5 discount but also there is a small discount applied to your future orders.

My aim in posting information about vitamin D is to ensure people are aware of the latest scientific evidence.

It seems to me immoral to suggest to people in the UK that they need to use around 5000iu/daily D3 but not explain where the cheapest/easiest/most reliable place to purchase is, particularly as 5000iu are not available in the UK.

Not only is the service IHERB provides excellent but generally speaking their postal charges are cheaper than the competition. However over the long term they work out cheaper because of the extra discounts that come from bulk buying or those that accrue as you share your rewards code with friends and workmates or online.

The amount of discount the IHERB rewards scheme provides is trivial.
As far as I am concerned it is totally irrelevant and plays absolutely no part in my decision making.

You have got to get your priorities right.

What is the aim of this forum, or indeed forums for Diabetes, Pakinson's, Alzheimer's or Celiac?

Is it to provide accurate up to date scientific information that enables people to better understand their condition and be better placed to make evidence based decisions about diet/supplement use that MAY help control that condition?

I am perfectly happy to provide the scientific sources for all the information I supply.
If anyone wants to debate that information further then that's fine providing they go to the trouble of providing equivalent sources of information so I can then explain why I think the information I provide is to be preferred.

In these recessionary times we have to take into account the best interests of all readers and that includes our readers best financial interests.

Does RB's link to vitacost provide a cheaper source of 5000iu D3 than the link I provided to IHERB?
Check it out
What do you find?

Why should I be ashamed of providing people with a link to the cheapest source of D3?

Everyone who uses IHERB and who spreads their rewards code around as much as I do will know just how insignificant the discounts are.
I ONLY provide the link to IHERB where they offer the cheapest source I am aware of.
As you know I link to Biotech for 50,000iu and provide links to the cheapest UK source for those who dislike importing. Neither of these sources provide rewards codes or any rebate in kind to me But that doesn't stop me suggesting them.

I hope people choose IHERB because it pleases me to think other people are also getting a bargain. I hate to think people are being ripped off.
I hope other people are smart enough to share their IHERB rewards code so they also can benefit from ongoing discounts to further orders.
I take the view that the lower the cost of using Vitamin D3 the more likely it is that people will use it and this extends also to the future discounts they will get if they follow my suggestion to share their rewards code with others.

I'm sure everyone who does so will soon become aware of the trivial nature of these rewards. However a trivial discount off your next order is better than no discount. Who better to explain where the cheapest place to get your supplements from than the person who sometimes, if he's very lucky, only has to pay the postage charge.

I cannot understand the mentality of people who choose to cut their nose to spite their face. Similarly I find it hard to comprehend why anyone takes exception to being shown the cheapest source of a particular supplement.

R.B. when posting on other forums regularly links to his book. No one makes snide remarks about the profit this may bring to him. I wouldn't dream of doing so because it is absolutely clear his motive is not his own personal profit but the fact that people need to be made aware of the importance of the information he provides and whatever the income R.B.derives from the sale of his book is truly insignificant when taken into account the time and effort RB spends in explaining carefully and thoroughly the evidence he has considered. It would be insulting to suggest RB is only posting to obtain free publicity to obtain further profit from his book sales. Personal profit isn't his motive, any more it is mine. In the same way that RB provides accurate science based information to help others improve their health, so do I.

In exactly the same way the income (if one calls discount on supplement purchases an income) I derive from suggesting people use the cheapest reputable source of vitamin D3 I am aware of is utterly trivial, in comparison with the time I spend explaining, researching and sharing the valuable information I provide.
Make no mistake about it I get absolutely no reward for providing links to D Action

I do get a small discount off my next IHERB order if you use my code.
My motives for providing that link are to help you get the cheapest deal possible. If you are smart enough you will spread your code around and you will also get future discounts off your next order.

I believe it is morally wrong not to explain where the cheapest source is if I know it.

I think it is morally wrong to prevent people having access to the cheapest source.

I think when people are under stress with a chronic condition the last thing they need is to be ripped off by people taking advantage of their ignorance and therefore by providing a link to the cheapest source I'm aware of this saves them time, money and stress.

I think trying to smear the accuracy of the information I provide with the implication that I am promoting it for my own financial profit is not only insulting but so far from the truth it is laughable.