CONTROVERSIAL TOPIC -- hear me out...

[Caroline UK]

Andrea, I too respect your right to hold your own views, but that is all they are, not facts. It does seem that our thoughts and feelings have a physiological effect on the immune system, and even without any of the scientific studies that would make sense. That's really important, I agree, but I think it's still only a small part of the whole picture. To suggest that you can heal yourself by the power of positive thinking, is to also suggest that you are to blame if you don't heal, and that I feel is quite wrong and unhelpful.

Since having bc I seek out things and people who make me laugh. I go and see funny films, and I'm slowly easing away from people who I now realise bring me down and sap me of my energy and love for life. I look on the bright side more, and consciously count my blessings ( I now see how many I have, too). I take care of myself more, walk up the stairs instead of taking the lift, take regular vitamins and supplements, eat better, make an effort to see friends and tell people I love them. I appreciate my ever-increasing, post-chemo energy, and notice the small stuff more.
I'm sure we'd all agree with you that we need to 'think positive', and if nothing else, it makes for a happier way of living and being. Anything else, like the effect it may or may not have on our immune system, is an added bonus.

I don't want to put a complete downer on what you've said, but I would just urge you to take extra care over how you say things, perhaps. We actually just don't know what would or wouldn't happen if we did nothing at all to look after our minds, bodies and souls.
I can see that you want to encourage people to take responsibility for their own happiness, and I like that in you and your previous postings. I'm glad to be reminded. BUT, we can't take 100% responsibility for whether we beat cancer or not. I'm wondering if maybe you didn't quite mean it like that, but that's how I understood it from what you said.

[Carolyns]

CONTROVERSIAL SUBJECT -- please hear me out...

Hi Andrea,

You said it was controversial and you are right. I work with a healer and we have similar, sometimes heated, discussions. On this journey I find it much easier to have this perspective when my counts and scans are good. I find that this perspective adds to my guilt and sadness when my situation takes a turn in the wrong direction.

Love, Hope, and Peace,

Carolyns

[kimber]

Andrea:

I am appalled that you would insinuate that any of us gave ourselves this disease. Have you ever heard of GENETICS among other things. Give me a break.

This board is for HELPING one another. Not blame! I am sending YOU prayers.
-kim

[Andrea Barnett Budin]

MY CANCER IS NOT MY FAULT. Absolutely, I agree. I do not in any way blame myself or feel any guilt or shame. I have always done the best I could at the time. But we are all here to learn lessons, and to love one another and ourselves! Yes it is fabulous that after having bc I am kinder to myself. I see the value of laughter and loving. Very therapeutic and healing. And joyful. It has taught me to walk away from people who bring me down (toxic relationships), people who are not giving of themselves, lack generosity of Spirit and a loving nature. They are takers. I surround myself w/loving people who appreciate me for the True Me. They see my happy smiling face full of tranquility and marvel. I appreciate them for the wise and wonderful Spirits they are and I keep them close, if not literally by phone and email.

I was always optimistic, which is handy when facing an adversity like bc, but I never saw how truly blessed I am. I count all the tiny things, I see the sublime in the ordinary, literally! Now. I have learned much since being dx. I have read much, as all of us have, but I don't pour over the factors and percentages, I focus instead, on spirituality. For me, this is fulfilling and gratifying. It enhances my life immeasurably. It makes me feel happier, more alive and more in harmony than ever before. More than I imagined possible.

I pray for more energy. I watch my diet, eating the good, and rejecting the tempting but bad. I see an oncol/hematol/nutitional expert who has given me multiple supplements (to boost my imm sys, strengthen my heart, fight free radicals, anti-oxi, energize, etc.) Mainstream docs think it's a waste of time. I respect their opinion, but respectfully add supplements anyway, w/my 1 onc blessings. I do my best to take care of my temple (body, mind) and of course my Soul.

Surely I know too many who had positive attitudes but lost their battle. I grieve for their loss to this world, to me. I loved them dearly and tried my best to support them. We all have weak moments and some times we find we stray off the positive trail. I know I have. And how difficult it was to get my footing back. I have failed numerous times. None of us is perfect. Perfect is boring as I see it. I am human. I do the best I can at the time. No one could ask more of themselves. When I was in a valley, lost and groping I did not feel angry or disappointed at myself. I simply tried my best to pick myself up. It would take a comment from my daughter, Pami, who is surely an old Soul, to say to me -- You've lost touch with your spiritual Self. Simple as that. I'd rally. I'd go back to meditating and connecting deep inside myself with my Spirit. And miraculously, all of a sudden, the ME I love being was back!

So, I wish for all of you never to blame yourselves, but to keep searching for lessons and messages and healing in every capacity -- body, mind and Soul. I send you all loving energy at all times because in the end that is what Life is all about -- going within and being lifted up, reaching out and loving one another. Don't beat yourself up -- EVER. Be as kind to yourself as you would your own child or your best friend. That's what you deserve. And keep on doing your best. No one can ask more of you. I wish you wellness in your brave fight, strength to carry on and belief in yourself and your own EMPOWERMENT. That is your birthright. ANDI (BB)

[Andrea Barnett Budin]

When I broke my ankle, just after Taxotere I did not feel I had caused the accident. The pot hole created the problem, the way I looked at it. When I was dx w/bc some suggested I go the spiritual route. NO. I would do the mastec/reconst tram flap/and all the chemo AND do the spiritual thing. When I recurred, again absolutely I went w/the cutting edge opin of all 4 oncs -- w/the most aggressive weapon they had in their arsenal, to match my aggressive Her2 gene, found in between episodes. I thank God for Herceptin every day.

I also thank God for my bld pressure meds. Like I would imagine a diabetic is grateful for insulin. My husband's grandmother died of diabetes, before insulin came along. We who benefit from Herceptin (or Tykerb) live in humble gratitude.

Those who have failed in their battle were no less strong, brave and determined. All that we see is not all there is. Reasons beyond my imagination must have been in play. Perhaps they were needed in the Spiritual Realm for a task only they could manage. We are each unique. Why would you think to besmirch their memory w/such ugly thoughts?

I am still a warrior, holding on to the edge as best I can. I do not have any desire to LECTURE you. Sorry you feel that is so. Just trying to offer the best advice I have accumulated over the last 12 yrs to those struggling. Offering my hand -- to grab yours and help you over the edge w/me. That is my motivation. Nothing sinister. It is a loving gesture. Please don't be offended or angry w/my offering. If you are so filled w/harsh criticism that you don't want a spot on the lifeboat -- that is your choice. You do not have to think like me. What I post is a suggestion for your consideration. You are an adult, fully capable of making your own choices. Just some ideas you may not have considered that might be worthy of your attention.

I have nothing but respect and loving admiration for ev women on this board and ev woman I have known that has been thrust on this journey. None of us volunteered for this. But here we are, trying our best to do all we can do to help ourselves. It is what it is is where I went immediately (mentally) when dx. There was no escaping that. But I knew I could choose how I would respond. So I chose to be proactive, informed and take the spiritual path, having gleaned many lessons on the mindbody connection and now using it for my survival. And of course wanting to share these lessons w/all who are OPEN. To blossom you must open. If you are not ready, or choose not to think of the power you have been blessed with -- perhaps you will find other lessons, and hopefully, share them w/all of us. I promise I won't attack you for your opinions. I won't take them personally. I won't feel they fly in the face of those who've fought hard and lost.

Isn't it natural for all of us to wonder WHO ARE LIFE'S VICTORS? Who are the Olympic gold medalists? How did they get there? Was it luck? Or is there a common thread. I have noted this since I was a child, struggling daily against a raging father who was, as I see now in retrospect, a lost Soul. I felt mortally wounded and became mature quickly, fighting for my life against verbal assaults. When someone on TV asked the winners WHY DO YOU THINK YOU WON? I turned and listened intently. Same if they asked the "favorites" why they thought they lost. I turned and became riveted. I saw the common thread. What they all had in common was this -- they each KNEW they would win, or FEARED they would lose. They each SAW themselves winning over and over in the last yr, or vice versa. This lesson impacted me profoundly. Going within myself was how I remained optimistic, open, friendly, loving, compassionate and kind. It all had to happen to make me evolve into who I am today. And I am grateful for it all. No anger. No resentment or blame. No inability to forgive. I am free -- to BE. Sending you loving energy to nourish your Soul... ANDI

[Andrea Barnett Budin]

Try living with more generosity of Spirit. I INSINUATE nothing. I am very straight forward. About myself, my feelings, my thoughts, precisely. Dear God, you, nor any or us, gave ourselves this disease. Do not twist my words. Perhaps you should read some of my posts. Or perhaps you're too busy being offended, defensive, angry and appalled to read any of my posts. Perhaps you could learn something -- if you are OPEN, in mind and heart. Let go of the rage, it's really not good for you. Don't mean to be offensive. Progressive maybe in my thinking, but surely many experts on holistic med agree w/the premise. Feel free to negate it. Absolutely do not feel "responsible" for yr bc. I do not say I am responsible for it, BUT... Read about Dr. Sarno and my bad back. That might help give you perspective. No one is out to get you. I am simply offering you what I have found. I want to share what I see as incredibly EMPOWERING. I want you to feel personally empowered. It is grand. Sending you loving, healing energy regardless of your point of view... I do not judge any one. It is not my place to judge. ANDI

[Andrea Barnett Budin]

IF YOU FIGURE THAT ONE OUT, let us all know. I do know that when I stopped looking at 1 of my puppies that we rescued as a lost cause, scared to death I would lose him and started to think differently -- he became healed. He had mange, no hair on his face, neck and chest. Only red raw skin, looking a burn victim, obviously in dire pain, wouldn't eat or drink, crept into corners, ready to die. I would look at him with so much FEAR. Then I opened the bk the rescue lady gave me. It happened to open to a chapter called The Spiritual Realm. The vet was from Cornell, mainstream for 10, and had become a holistic vet.

I read voraciously. Then I picked my Chase up and put him in my lap, this pathetic little puppy. I told him, and thought, I see (NOT YOUR RAW HORRID FACE, but) your beautiful Soul and I meant it with all my heart. I told him not to be afraid. (I'd known that, but forgot, I knew it w/regard to ME, but forgot when faced w/his sickness). I told him I was right there with him. That I'd make him well. I stroked him and kissed him for a half hr. When I put him down he walked perkily away. No one had paid so much attention to him in the 4 mnths of his life. When I returned to the vet he was amazed. Why I asked. Because when a dog is that sick they usually don't make it. He tested for the mites that were ravaging his immune system and body and he was clear. I smiled at my husband, a non-believer. Chase is now 4 yrs old and we have his brother Scamp too. They bring much joy and love to our home and our lives. I thank God ev day for the blessing of these boys. And for still being alive! It's all so wonderfully miraculous.

And I am grateful you Audrey are still here. Perhaps God and/or your Spirit had your back and got you through. Regardless, I am glad you made it through and with great attitude to boot! Hurray for you. Live each day in joy and peace. Be well and stay well. ANDI

[Andrea Barnett Budin]

Not because you may agree w/me but because that's simply who you are, from all your postings. I love that about you. You are OPEN and have the courage to mentally meander a bit. You are so full of positivity and joy and that is what you draw to you. So glad you are a Survivor. You are an Olympic gold medalist in my book. A winner. May it continue for many decades to come. I sense it will... Sending you loving, healing energy, ANDI

[Andrea Barnett Budin]

It distresses me that you who are outraged feel that way. Can't we just agree to disagree. Not take it personally? Not feel the need to fight. Every word I post is sent with loving energy, in the hopes of being inspiring, yes thought-provoking but never to stir up anger. That is so shocking to me. Why do you think those of you who felt so offended by the idea that we are so empowered?

I do not claim responsibility for causing my bc, but see the line that connects the dots, now in hindsight. It was amazing, yet I felt no guilt. I knew I would never do anything to hurt anyone, especially myself. I am a pacifist through and through. Maybe if you were threatening someone I loved dearly I might come at you, but otherwise... Just not an angry person. Esp since bc.

Much more willing to listen and learn, or reject, views. Politics -- I stay clear. There I become passionate. But otherwise, we each have our views. Most people I email, off this board, tell me they carry my messages with them in their pocketbooks or keep them in a pile on their night stand for easy access. Some times during the day they return to my words for strength in getting through their battle. This thrills me, obviously, as my intent is always to do just that. They treasure my words. I am saddended by those who reacted so vehemently. I still send you loving energy, and pray you will calm yourself and find your connection to your spiritual essence, at your core. We are here to support one another. I have NEVER gotten such opposition. Guess you're very strong minded, though many I communicate w/are precisely that yet "get" it. So sorry if you don't. Just promise you won't go feeling guilty. And to all who've fought and lost the struggle, I do not know why they were taken but I love and miss them. I can't see why from my perspective, but they fought hard and somehow lost anyway. Would love to figure it out, but maybe it's not something those of us on the Physical Plane are able to see, sadly. It appears that it's just not fair, makes no sense, but I have faith that their is a Divine Intelligence with a Plan and purpose, beyond our ability to grasp.

Meantime, keep doing what you know, stay strong, brave and determined and feel as much joy and serenity as you possibly can. Each day is a gift. Those on this board know this well. Not a single day goes by that I don't say thank you with all my heart. Out loud. PEACEFUL THOUGHTS TO YOU ALL... ANDI

[Edie L]

This whole line of thought is certainly not a new one among people who have cancer (or amidst the "wisdom" of people who have become "experts" because they know a few people who have cancer.) It makes me think of the many people who observe that I am still alive after 3 1/2 years with mets to the liver because I have such a positive attitude: I've gotten to the point where I just chuckle and say, "Boy, that means that heaven is filled with people with negative attitudes! It doesn't sound like a very nice place to be...."
Edie (MI)

Well Andrea, if what you say is true, I should be dead of myriad diseases ages ago. Yet I lived a very healthy life until 65, never went near doctors, ranted and railed at every political turn of this country, never hesitated to bad mouth doctors, lawyers, indian chiefs, drug companies, oil companies, and any other entities or people that annoyed me. I haven't a positive thought in my head, never had, and never will. That all being said, I enjoy life and my own cynicism and I hope to continue for a long while to come. So I guess I'm with Maryjo, Erin, and Kimber on this one.

[vickie h]

Dearest Andi,
There are many who will be offended by your post, but I, for one, am standing in a field of sunshine clapping my hands together in praise of your bravery. After reading "The Buddha in your mirror" as well as numerous publications and writings, I can humbly and happily applaud you for telling the truth. It is a hard pill to swallow, though much as chemo, diet, exercise, wholistic treatment (meaning the whole of us, Including our thoughts and the way we view the world, our bodies, others, our spirituality, etc.) and it has everything to do with our health. It has been debated for years that our thoughts (angry, hurtful, childhood trauma, stress, etc) can cause our immune systems to begin breaking down and opening the door for disease.
I was one of those people. Angry at the state of my life, raped as a child, raised by a single mom who was barely able to provide for us 4 children, fell into the drugs of the sixties. And yet, I loved other people and animals and the world around me with a passion and yet, all those around me had no idea of the unresolved pain I was living with. Each and every one of them thought I was extremely positive about life, happy and a fighter. The truth is I was drowning....and then I was diagnosed.
I don't suggest that is every one's story or cause of their illness, but I do believe that our thoughts are tantamount to our health......physical, emotional, and spiritual.
I am the same person I was all those years ago, but I have come to face to face with fear, and it has changed my life. In the very blackness of the night, a light so bright and warm covers me with blankets of love.
Thank you, Andi. I send you my love and prayers, Vickie

[Adriana Mangus]

Dear Andi: I love your postings. Did someone get offended by it?

I can't imagine anyone being upset over "your" inspirational view on Life and possibly Death. As you mentioned we are unique, and as such we have our own way to deal with breast cancer issues.

I'm like you, I prefer to be known as a warrior, determined, fearless, commited to trustworthy causes, loving, courageous, etc.., you get the point.

People who have determination to live and have no resentment, nor feel victimized by this disease, have a positive attitude, surrender themselves to whatever comes their way, accept without anger and thrive to make the best of -even- the most horrible experiences in life, THOSE are the REAL SURVIVORS.

It has been documented, positive attitude would help you live longer.

I have this experience: My neighbor was dx with bc after my diagnosis, her cancer recurred shortly before mine did. She was so upset, I couldn't believeit, I did not like to be around her, I felt compassion for her, but everytime I would talk to her she would make statements such as: "I do not understand why me, when other people are mean spirited and am a good person. I see people traveling all over the world, with money and a good life and why me. Well, sadly she's no longer with us. She died just after two years after the recurrence. I cannot imagine how bitter she must have been lying in bed waiting to die.

I am thankful to God, the scientists, my doctor, nurses and everyone who's sharing this journey with me.

I'm not a victim, I AM A SURVIVOR, LIVING A GREAT LIFE. I'M HAVING THE BEST TIME EVER!!!!

[Sherryg683]

Sometimes I think back on what could have caused this cancer in me. I was in tip top shape when I got it, best cardio shape in my life. Then I think back to all the days that I got myself in total fits of rage and stress over stupid things that meant nothing. I would literally shake with rage sometimes. I don't know if this stress I put myself through contributed to my cancer, but sometimes I wonder. I now try to control the stress, I don't get angry and worked up near as much. I do have my days but I try to stop them. I have started to let my healthy husband handle all the "dirty" work in our family. I was always the first to jump on the phone and chew someone out for some injustice..now he takes care of the problems..i like it that way. But as far as positive attitude. I am and have always been a glass half empty person. Every time I go get a scan, I just figure this is the one where it's going to be more bad news. My Oncologist always tells me that I am his first stage IV breast cancer patient that has gone this long without having to get back on chemo and tells me how good I am doing. I always laugh and tell him because it's because of my "positive attitude"..lol. Although i do find that I gain so much strength and positivity from God and praying. I like to go skinny dipping in our pool very very late at night. I will just float there, look at the stars and talk to God. I thank him for everything and pray for others. This somehow grounds me and gives me peace and strength. When I look at all those lovely stars above me, I know there's something more out there, I feel free. So I guess we all do what we have to to find strength. I don't find it productive in trying to figure out why I got Cancer, it's done and over with now..I just have to live with it...sherry

[fauxgypsy]

I have been doing a lot of reading on the mind-body connection. I am often skeptical. My degrees are in the field of biology so I look at the research with a cynical eye. But this applies as well to allopathic medicine. When I look at research conducted these days my first thought is "who benefits". I appear to be benefitting from the therapy I am recieving. Although, I don't know that the prayer and the "directed thinking" that I have concentrated on might not have influenced my outcome so far.

I am disapointed in my oncologist's total lack of interest in anything outside of the various drugs he is giving me. The clinic where I recieve my treatment is definitely benefiting as well as the giant pharmacology companies. Research is going to follow the money, with rare exceptions. That said, I am not talking about positive thinking. If I were standing on the deck of the Titanic and the lifeboats were gone, I don't think that being happy would be a solution. I was diagnosed with stage four cancer with liver mets in Feb. After two months of treatment, a PET scan showed no evidence of disease. My oncologist was surprised. This is not what he expected. Me either.

I have been reading quantum physics on an elementary level. And it leaves me filled with awe. Everything is so beautifully interconnected. I do believe that we influence how our bodies respond to illness. What I meant earlier in this post by directed thinking was that I meditated on my immune system, on the healing power of my own body. I visualized the cancer cells dying. I can't prove that it made any difference at all. But I can't prove that it didn't.

Obviously, there are many factors involved in the onset of cancer. Genetics ( as far as the breast cancer gene) accounts for only a small percentage of cases. Environmental insults from chemicals such as dioxins play a role. Viruses may also have an impact. But none of this disproves the theory that our emotions or thoughts or life experiences may affect our immune system or any of our autonomic systems,for that matter. How our body reponds to the cancer cells is obviously not under our conscious control. But that does not mean that it not affected by stress, etc.

There are scientific studies that suggest a strong connection between emotions and illness. It is erroneous to declare that it is an opinion with no basis in fact. I've included sites that address these issues.

http://www.psycho-oncology.net/abstracts.html

http://womensmindbodyhealth.info/science32.htm

http://www.scirus.com/srsapp/search?...=web&g=s&t=all

http://www.infinityinst.com/articles...mmunology.html

http://www.scirus.com/srsapp/search?...nom&ds=web&g=s

My thoughts on the matter are that both points of view are valid, with the understanding that it is not a matter of blame if you get sick or don't get well. No amount of thinking, positive or otherwise will keep us alive in this body forever. No amount of happy thoughts will console us when we lose people we care about. For some of us, it is important to feel that we can be proactive. That there is something we can do. It makes me feel less like a victim. We may not be able to heal ourselves but I think that to discount the mind-body connection is dangerous. The benefits may not be lifesaving but they can be life enhancing.

Leslie

P.S. The picture I have included with my profile is a painting I was just finishing when I was diagnosed. Phoenix rising.

[Heart Sutra]

Victor Frankl's "Man's Search For Meaning" referenced above contains one perfect line that stands out and has been demonstrated as true in both mine and Sue's experience. Nothing too philosophical here... (Doesn't really speak to this issue either )
The line is:
"He who has a WHY to live can bear any HOW."

This has little to do with positive thought, or mind body connections, sickness, health, or even happiness for that matter. Take from it as you wish, or not at all. There is truth there though.

Yes, going over one's past certainly can explain a lot about who you are today, and a calm mind is more likely healthier than a stressed one, and yes extreme stress can wear on the body as well as the mind, but it doesn't necessarily follow then that a positive mind can cure illness. This is flawed reasoning.

It is more likely that a positive attitude can't hurt, and nothing more or less.

We see the original post as sincerely written with good intentions. We don't need to agree with it to see that there wasn't any suggestion to stop treatments, or to abandon modern medicine for therapy sessions, or prayer sessions, or even the diet du jour for that matter... it seems to be an opinion expressed out of goodwill. There's our 2 cents.

All anyone has, cancer or not, is this moment. In this moment, We're glad you're all here mixing it up for a change.
And... big P.S. for those of you who focus on this sort of thing ( you know who you are ). Sue and I write together, She's made me edit out my diatribe, which I really enjoyed writing too -- Probably for the best.

Thank you for being here in this moment

[Audrey]

Interesting post, Andrea. I do agree with you to a point, but I just wanted to share that when I was diagnosed in 2001 my prognosis was "poor" and I had the worst attitude. I walked around under a dark cloud for months, and my thoughts consisted of "I'M DOOMED"- I did show up faithfully for chemo/radiation and a year of Herceptin and slowly, slowly I realized that I wasn't dying after all...No one is more surprised than I am that I am still here six years later. Now I am filled with joy and wonder and look for the positive in everything, but this attitude definitely came about AFTER I had treatment that worked for me. I give credit to God, my doctors and medical science (especially Herceptin), but my attitude was certainly not what healed me at the time. I seem to have been healed in spite of my poor attitude, while other positive people in support groups, etc. died. I do think a positive attitude can enrich your life, but don't think necessarily makes a difference in the outcome of your illness.