Fats

Alot of us have been reading about fats here, but I ask you here, for one who does not concentrate well, could you reduce that to plain Engilish? It sounds like good imformation but i don't know what you are talking about!

Susie

[Tom]

Dear Susie,

Our resident "fathead" is RB. He is into some heavy duty research of the relationships of fatty acids and breast cancer. I will attempt to be as brief as possible in explaining this, and RB can follow if I have missed anything. Here goes:

Three essential groups of fatty acids are most often discussed. They are Omega-3, Omega-6, and Omega-9. Current research suggests that the ratio of Omega-3 to Omega-6 plays an important role in general health, and in particular, to the beginnings of malignancies. Over the years, Americans in particular, have evolved a diet that has a growing amount of Omega-6 compared to Omega-3. This is believed to be one of the reasons that cancers have seemingly become so prevalent. Therefore, it is important that one changes diet/supplementation in order to provide a better balance of Omega-6 to Omega-3. At the very least, one should have a 1 to 1 ratio of Omega-3 to Omega-6. The higher the ratio of Omega-3 to Omega-6, the better. Simply put, always strive to INCREASE Omega-3, and DECREASE Omega-6. Omega-3 would include a substance known as EPA and DHA (Google those), found mainly in cold-water fish oils. Omega-6 would include linoleic acid, found in flaxseed oil and other vegetable oils such as safflower oil. Red meat also contains Omega-6 fatty acids.


One reason that you should reduce Omega-6 intake, is that it is a promoter of some of the body's natural inflammatory responses, which have been associated with new cancers, and the metastasis of existing cancers.


Omega-9, which is the main ingredient of olive oil, is beneficial to your health because of it's effects on reducing cardiovascular disease, and it's ability to keep Herceptin working beyond the period after which HER2+ breast cancers develop resistance to it.


The very short explanation would be:


Omega-3 is good for you


Omega-6 is generally bad for you


Omega-9 is good for you


That's my story and I'm sticking to it. I patiently await the appropriate editing by RB. Stay logged on and hopefully RB will magically appear within mere moments to clarify any mistakes I made. Come on RB. Don't make a fool out of me...I'm counting on you.

Thanks fo the complement Tom.

I am not always around it just depends what I am up to.

Your post is a to the point simplification of a complex subject.

Linoleic n6 series and linolenic n3 series cannot be made by the body and are essential in small balanced amounts to human health. They are not interchanageable the body cannot make one from the other.

EPA and DHA (found in oily fish conviently packaged for us) are made by the human body but not always well, and hence the often made suggestion of nutritional people to take supplements of EPA DHA. Trials show the bodies take up tails of at about 2g per day.

Most vegetable / seed / nut oils oils except flax and perillia and olive are high in omega six and so to balance the threes and sixes they really need to be avoided. (the whole foods are ok in sensible mix and balance but not the oils which for some implies big changes out with the chip pan frying pan in with steamer stews casseroles etc, amost all processed food is out the window until they stop putting vegetable oil into everything etc.).

The problem is you find them EVERYWHERE in "processed" food, margerine etc etc and so have to become an avid label checker. (OLIVES IN OIL SUNFLOWER!!!!! WAS MY LATEST FIND !)

Lots greens are good for all sorts of reasons and add some beans for fibre seems to be common dietary advice.

Omega nine is more complex The body can make omega nine but maybe appreciates being saved the effort.

Olive oil (like many whole foods) contains other useful substances that are beleived by some on the basis on various trials to help reduce BC risk.

I know nothing about omega nine / olive oil and herceptin resistance. I have seen the small wiff of smoke in my reading that variation of fat intake may impact on herceptin resistance. Fats omega threes and possibly sixes certainly meet share some communality in pathways where they act and have been reported in reducing risk of HER possibly, and MAYBE impact on herceptin resistance either by somehow helping herceptin OR by helping the body do what it needs to do in terms of providing fats and so save the body having to desparately drive hard to find new ways to do whatever it is trying to do reulting in it blocking herceptin. Do not misunderstand me - my hunch is that these fats and herceptin have more in common than we are currently hearing, but it is only that hunch and straws in the wind, and on this I may be totally wrong.

In summary on omega three and six. For me there are so many signposts even if the exact road is not clear that a diet that balance threes and sixes is a good bet for better health and lower BC risk.

As you said in our world of oversupply of omega six in very simplistic terms

Balance your omega three and six

Threes ( because they are hard to find) GOOD
Sixes (because they are almost unavoidably everywhere) BAD
Nine (quality olive oil cold pressed and remember 10% of a lot is still a lot of six compared with most peples intake of three)

DHA EPA 2grams or so a day some take more some take less.

Take Flaxseed and flaxseed oil to balance threes.

As high a variety as possible and moderation.

As always it is more complex - some take a lot more fish oil to balance the sixes - it maybe they work against diseases because they are highly oxidised maybe linolenic in flax seed is better as more stable. I simply cannot give you any answer on it.

Generally check with your advisor before any change in diet - these fats are heap powerful in the way they function and it is even more complex where treatments are involved.

I wish I could give you definative and simple answers but I cant it is simply too complex and there have not been enough sensibly directed trials (eg based on body fat rather than memories and impressions of dietary intake coloured by the human dynamic).

However I would not be spending the time I am and have changed my own diet if I did not think it was the right direction if that is of any comfort.


RB

Thank you! what's the harm in avoiding omega 6's and concentrating on cold-pressed olive oil? I asked this on another thread but what about lard and butter? My grandparents never had a vegetable oil or olive oil or fish oil in their lives and they ALL(4) lived to be over 90/ They always kept lard in a can and used it for cooking and also used butter( not oleo).

[RhondaH]

once you get used to it. Being that I "live" the Breast Cancer diet, I RARELY take in any 6's (also, because everything I eat is organic, even the crackers I eat have olive oil instead of veg oil) and I, like RB check ALL the packages. I'm so busy getting my 9 fruits and vegetables a day in that other than the dressing on my salad (which I use olive oil in), I RARELY eat ANY oil, let alone Omega 6. Everyone says I'm strange though, but I'm doing EVERYTHING I can to keep from getting this again (surgery, chemo, rad, diet, exercise, reducing my environmental exposure and most of all PRAYER) and at least I can say I'm doing everything I can...though I do cheat 1 day a week

Rhonda

Re butter and lard see your other thread - I have responed there.

RhondaH's postion for me is a good one.

The key seems to be to balance the threes and sixes.

The other post would suggest that high saturates and high olive oil may not be good news.

From my general reading impression rather than certainty its the mediteranean diet fish and olive oil (greek islanders) - OR saturates with a bit of fish and no extracted oils (plains hunter) but not a mix in the way you are suggesting, and most research has been on Mediteranean rather than plains hunter.

The problem in balancing threes and sixes is even a small amount of olive oil = "quite a lot of omega six" (10% and up) which needs balancing. This is a link for an olive oil (18:2 is the omega six you generally have to consider linoleic)

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-B00001-01c208D.html

You can see how much 18:2 a cupfull of this particular olive oil contains (quality unknown) 21.000mg

A same size cup of flax seed contains 28,000mg n6 and 116,000mg n3 a difference of 88,000mg, so you need a quarter cup of flaxseed to balance depending on qualities of the oils etc

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-B00001-01c21xq.html

and for fish oil which is taken in teaspoons the same cup measure 218 grams contains approximately see link but mainly the higher chain 3s,

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-B00001-01c20AC.html

Enough omega three to balance sixes in extracted oils can only be got from a high three sources, AS by and large the threes and sixes in veg pulses etc balances anyway, AND do not contain anywhere near these amounts.

Eg cabbage 30mg n3 in a serving

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-B00001-01c20cF.html

High three sources (a food or food oil source where omega three content significantly exceeds omega six per unit consumed) are limited flaxseed, perillia, fish, some seaweeds?, plankton, Fish (oily have more). And flaxseed and perillia do not contain DHA EPA.

1. If you want to get the benifit of olive oil (10% omega six for virgin up to 50% for processsed) AND you wish to balance the 3s and 6s YOU HAVE NO OPTION but to use a high three source. That might be flaxseed perillia etc.

2. If you want the benifit of DHA EPA and save your body from making it and there are cogent arguments based on the bodies need for EPA DHA you need to eat a food containing them and the choices are limited for concentrated sources.

3. If you are talking about small amounts of butter lard plus olive oil scrapes not blocks its probably OK.

4. If you feel you must eat fat in quantity once you have balanced your six intake from extracted oils (olive etc), I can see an argument for frying chips etc in lard, butter to bake, as against increasing the sixes and then having to try and consume lots of high three to balance them, but the other link I posted did lend some suggestion to it not being a good combination. But better than the alternative of frying in veg oil a good question. I have not seen any research so can in no way comment on the likely outcome.

In so far as there is any consenus a lowish fat intake seems to be the preferred option, always balancing the threes and sixes.

I would guess that olive oil would have been a luxury for your grandparents and they would have consumed very little refined vegetable oils if any.

RB

They never heard of olive oil. they were from rural kentucky and tennessee and olive oil was in no way part of their diet.

Thanks for your thoughts unregistered. Lots of outlooks makes for thought provoking (hopefully) discussion.

It is good to be reminded that people lived long an health lives pre olive and vegetable oils!

Sorry something went wrong there and I posted before I meant to. Hence unsigned

There are some interesting articles looking at the way our diets have changed

RB