Michael Moore Film - Sicko

[naturaleigh]

Ladies:

I just got back from seeing the Michael Moore film Sicko. I strongly urge everyone to go see it. It is about the health care system in the USA. It is appaling how much control the Insurance companies and the goverment have on our health. There has to be something we can do to change the health care system.

I know we do have at least one member from England, I would like to get her take on this documentary to see if what he portrayed about England is true.

Please go see this film.

Anita

[hutchibk]

I do not plan to see it as I will not give Michael Moore a cent of my money. He is not a thinker or a solver. He is merely a malcontented contrarian... an opportunistic whiner and complainer who has found a successful formula to make money off of manipulating people's emotions. He is a well documented fabricator.

A close friend lives in the UK and is on the national health system. His father needed a heart operation in February last year. The doctor told him he could possibly schedule it for late July. The friend asked how soon it could be done if his father had private insurance or were to pay for it, and the doctor's answer was that that was a different story and it would cost $10,000 and that he could fit him in on Thursday. From what I understand, much of it depends on the individual doctor and how the NHS pays them. The NHS doesn't pay for all procedures, so not all on NHS have access to the same care as those who have chosen to buy supplemental insurance. And on the flip side, the insurance does not always cover all scans that they need, etc... (sound familiar?) My friend and his sister promptly decided that they needed to apply for private health insurance for when they might need it, so as not to be in the same predicament as his father. As well, I have read that the Irish are currently up in arms over their poor medical health and hospitals. If my friend in England wants access to timely appointments (within weeks as opposed to months), access to the best hospitals and the best care, then he has to purchase private supplemental insurance. At a cost not much different than my primary insurance costs me. But to have their 'national health care', they have to pay much, much higher income taxes per year (apx 45 %) and sales taxes (apx %20). Yet that 'national public health care' doesn't get them what they need when they need it. Michael Moore doesn't tell you that in his movie, does he? I agree that our health insurance system is bloated, overwhelming, imperfect and outrageously expensive. It is a tremendously ineffecient in many ways and an increasingly difficult system. But for someone in my shoes, I would rather be here in our current health system than anywhere else in the world. National/Socialistic health system models that are found in other countries are not the only answer to our woes. Just because ours is expensive doesn't mean that other countries systems are better just because they are perceived as 'free for all'... They are typically 2 tiered systems, and they are hardly free. They are very broken models as well.

You are appalled by how much control the Govt has over our health... imagine how much worse it would be if they had all of the control over our health! From what I understand, in England, they have a postal code lottery system when it comes to access to drugs.. the NHS leaves decisions about paying for drugs to each area's primary care trust and some unfortunately will not pay for some drugs, due to cost and how much debt each trust is in. They also have to wait for NICE (National Institute for Clinical Excellence) approval on drugs before the NHS makes them available. As it stands currently, Tykerb isn't licenced, so it must be accessed through a clinical trial. When Herceptin needed to be licenced for early breast cancer, the NHS would not fund it and people who desperately needed it could not get it. It will probably be a very similar situation when Tykerb comes up for license in the UK.

I suggest researching the real solvers - the brilliant minds in our country who are looking to create a model that will work fairly and efficiently. Look up the name Regina Herzlinger.

[MJo]

I think a middle way would be best. I am not going to boycott Michael Moore. I know many people with extreme points of view who do good. I am grateful that I was treated for IBC in the U.S. with all the latest treatments available to me. However I would relax and be a lot happier if I didn't have to worry about losing my health insurance at age 56 if I lot my job. I don't think anybody would argue that we need REASONABLY PRICED health insurance available to every single citizen in the U.S. It hurts initiative that a small busines owner with a family must pay about $12000 a year for family insurance I think that $12000 a year bill for health insurance could wreck the business, even with a tax break, given a small business' profit margin. The free market would offer me -- if they would cover me at all -- a single insurance rate of about $850/month. That's almost $12000 a year. If I had to work as a contractor, I don't know how I would afford to pay health insurance and keep a roof over my head.

I can't speak for England's system, other than my observation that in Europe it is considered one of the worst, not the best. At one point, the English public system was sending some of their patients to France for treatment as England didn't have the necessary beds or facilities. But I am most definitely not disagreeing with Moore, just wondering why he choose an inferior European system to use for comparison.

I have health insurance in Italy, which like most countries in Europe has universal health insurance. I have this by virtue of having residency in Italy. When I lived in the Perugia region, I paid $400 a year for this insurance; when I lived in the Terni region, I paid $0. Some regions charge more, but $400 is about the top price.

When my husband and I left the U.S. in 2001, we were paying $12,000 a year for insurance; it when up another $2,000 a year (with no claims) in 2002, and then the insurance company dropped us saying it couldn't insure us if we were living in Europe but refused to return the previous year's premium although it insisted we had not been covered.

My husband did not have insurance when we lived in Italy--he did not have residency at the time--and had some bleeding from the colon and was very scared. He went for a colonoscopy and after it was finished (painless in all ways as he was fine), he asked for the bill. The doctor said joking, "No cost. It was a pleasure looking at your colon." And then seriously, "Why should you pay? None of our citizens do." I might add that it took him two days to get an appointment. It took me considerably longer here.

Also, when I returned to New York, it took me six months to get an appointment for a mammogram--and I called every facility in New York. I wonder if my cancer had been found six months earlier if it would have still been non-invasive (it was 5mm IDC but mainly DCIS when it was found). Of course, I have only myself to blame, as I could have had my mammogram done in Italy in the small village in which I lived, as the mammogram truck came around twice a year. I had left my previous films in New York so thought it better to wait until I returned home.

I have many friends, American and English, who live in Italy and have had serious surgeries and diseases attended to at no cost (including breast cancer) and with excellent results, and they don't sit around worrying about how they'll pay. I should also add that Herceptin for all Stage 1 breast cancers was approved in Italy before it was approved in the United States, and it's given at no cost to the patient.

Yesterday on this board there were some postings about a scientific article that appeared recently in the New England Journal of Medicine. Some women were annoyed at the author of the article for publishing his conclusions, based on their perception that women with Stage 1 cancers would now have a difficult time getting herceptin approved by their insurance companies (and it may be true). Isn't it great that Italian women don't have to worry about scientists publishing their findings on the off chance that an insurance company might misinterpret the findings and refuse treatment! And isn't it great for science!

When I returned to the U.S. I had just turned 65 and was eligible for Medicare. My cancer was found after I was enrolled in Medicare, and I've had excellent treatment as a result, and in of all places an east coast cancer clinic. Thanks NYU for your excellent care. If my cancer had been found a few months earlier, I would have been forced to return to Italy for treatment--after paying very hefty (and I do mean hefty) taxes in the U.S. for some 48 years.

I agree with the general tenor of Moore's film. But I also agree with an earlier comment that he tends to make his films to inflame passions, and logic (and truth) often goes by the boards. But honestly, how else in this country do you get anyone's attention? Logic and reason do not prevail, I regret to say. Discussion is usually through ad hominem attacks, so why should we be surprised when Michael Moore follows suit.

We need serious reform of our medical system, so that all our citizens have an equal shot at good health and good treatment when they need it. Let's hope we get universal health insurance soon, and we can all get off this cancer ride, or at the very least that none of us have to use our life's savings to stay on the roller coaster.

[hutchibk]

From an Italian friend who moved to the US 6 years ago, I have heard that the income tax rate in Italy is around 43% for most if not everyone and that the VAT or sales tax is around 20%. He has said that it is a much better system in Italy than most in Europe, including Scandanavia. But, as much as he loves his mother country, he says that he (and his young family) has a markedly improved quality of life here with lower income, business and sales taxes. He also appreciates our health system. Though different from the system in Italy, payment wise, he believes that he pays less yearly for the private insurance system here than he paid through taxes and private insurance there for a "free" system. He sees value in both, but cannot believe that there is a rush in the US to model our health system after National Health systems in other countries.

I agree that our health insurance system is bloated, overwhelming, imperfect and outrageously expensive. It is a tremendously ineffecient in many ways and an increasingly difficult system. It puts decisions and control in the hands of the bean counters at increasingly beaurocratic insurance companies. Private insurance bureaucracy and paperwork consumes one-third of every health care dollar. It gives too much power to lobbyists. I believe all of that is true. That is why I suggest researching the folks out there who are working for a solution that will work in America. Thinkers, solvers, brilliant minds. There are models being devised that will offer a system that someday will make it accessible to everyone, but not free, and it will be a consumer driven, not a Govt run system.

I have to say that except for a few payment challenges I have faced in my three years in cancer treatment, I cannot complain too much about my insurance company. They are not perfect by any means, but I am pretty satisfied with the coverage and care provided and the lack of hassles for the most part.

Google Regina Herzlinger. Google Dr. Val (Revolution Health). There are other ideas out there.

[tricia keegan]

I just saw this post and had to reply as I live in Ireland, when herceptin was approved for early bc I met a lot of English people in the chemo ward who had to move here in order to get it as their primary trust would'nt pay for it,some of them were nurse's and told me she would have had to sell her house. Of course other places in the Uk did'nt have the same problem.
I was very fortunate and have had the best treatments and drugs immediatly available to me. I also post on Komen and am horrified sometimes to hear some of the ladies saying how expensive their anti nausea meds are and how they can only get so many due to the expense, especially Zofran. I felt bad as I had about two boxes of these left over from chemo that I did'nt use along with an assortment of other drugs I never needed.
I have voluntary private insurance but this only entitles me to a private room in a hospital,nothing else,the care and treatment I have had would be available to everyone. I did make one private payment before dx to see my breast surgeon asap, My appt wait time was two weeks privatly and four weeks public, I had my results in 24 hrs and a date for surgery the following week. Our system is not perfect either though and yes people have been up in arms mainly due to waiting times in the ER and a lack of beds within hospitals which means some unfortunate people have been left on trolleys after admission waiting for a bed.
I'm not sure if any system is perfect really but glad I never have to justify and scans or meds or ops to the insurance company,the way it works here is if the Dr orders it you get it although for some tests there may be a few weeks waitiing time.
A lady I know on Komen is brac + but her insurance company won't agree to her having an ooph, I asked my onc could I have tthis done and he agreed, I had a date within weeks. I do intend to see Michael Moore's film out of curiosity but agree he often does'nt give all the facts, the film is not released here anyway for another couple of weeks so I'll have plenty of time to read a few reviews!!
Just wanted to give you all an idea of how it works in Ireland, quite a few people believe our current Minister of health is trying to bring in a similar system here as you have in the States, myself included but doubt she'll succeed. Our drugs (inc tykerb ) are usually approved quite quickly and tykerb if fact was approved here before the States. As I mentioned earlier our health system is far from perfect but having had a cancer dx I have been very pleased with my level of treatments.

I lived in Italy for more than five years, know hundreds of Italians well and many many ex-pats, all of whom use the Italian health system, including many Americans, so I am very familiar with the Italian health care system, just as familiar with it as I am with the American system. Italy's system is rated third in the world. I have no clue how it's possible that your Italian friend paid more in health insurance in Italy than here. Perhaps your friend is lucky enough to have an employer paying his health care insurance (and taking a tax break which we're all paying for) but someone is paying more here than he paid in Italy. (My Italian premium was 0, as I wrote earlier.) Or perhaps he just has a lovely agreeable Italian nature. We found that Italians will avoid arguing with people over things they think are inconsequential. If they think you feel a particular way, they'll often agree with you out of politeness. Italians live longer than Americans, which is one of the items the World Health Organization factors into its evaluation of world health care systems. We're 37th in the world, probably because we have very little preventive health care and because we're so obese.

I will add that my care here has been absolutely wonderful. Everything is located in one building just four short blocks from my apartment. I have a wonderful oncologist, radiologist, and chemo nurses. But I'm lucky as I live in New York State, which has far more restrictive rules imposed on insurers than most other states. As my doctor said, I'm getting herceptin because I live in New York. In other states this might not be so, considering my Stage 1a diagnosis. My plan with my Oxford HMO has worked out very well for me. However, a very good friend of mine, a senior professor at the City University, is in absolute despair over her health plan. She had surgery on her knee recently (she could barely walk) and is getting bills every day for thousands of dollars not covered by her insurer, and is beside herself. She was given only eight sessions with a therapist, when she needs about 30. The remainder she must pay for herself. She has started seeing a mental health therapist because of the anxiety caused by her lack of good health insurance--the latter not paid for, of course.

But I am really curious about the Italian friend who paid 43% in taxes; most Italians I know are very clever at not paying any taxes (which is a very big problem in Italy). We watch Italian news every night, and had a good laugh the other evening at the story of the woman with a travel agency in Milan, with five employees, who claimed she made 1800 euros last year (about $2,200). It's only the folks who work in government jobs who pay the full tax rate, but that's a different story altogether.

We rented our very first apartment in Italy, in Venice, from one of the wealthiest women in Italy, a countess descended from the Medici. Yet she made us sign a false rental agreement saying we were paying half the actual rent so she could avoid paying taxes. It's called paying in the "black." This is standard practice in Italy. It makes for interesting situations when I'm writing, as I set my novels in Italy.

As Tricia writes, no health care system is perfect. But a health care system that treats everyone equally is moving closer to perfection than one that discriminates between the rich, the middle-class, and the poor. I've often thought how senseless it was when my 88 year old mother could have had extensive open heart surgery because she had good insurance and young children go without inoculations for childhood diseases. I guess I want everyone else to have the same benefits that I have.

And now to the lighter side:

A couple in their nineties are both having problems remembering things. During a checkup, their doctor tells them that they're physically okay, but they might want to start writing things down to help them remember. Later that night, while watching TV, the old man gets up from his chair. "Want anything while I'm in the kitchen?", he
asks.

"Will you get me a bowl of ice cream?"

"Sure."

"Don't you think you should write it down so you can remember it?"

"No, I can remember it."

"Well, I'd like some strawberries on top, too. Maybe you should write it down, so's not to forget it?"

He says, "I can remember that. You want a bowl of ice
cream with strawberries."

"I'd also l ike whipped cream. I'm certain you'll forget all that, so maybe you should write it down?"

Irritated, he says, "I don't need to write it down. I can remember it!

Then he toddles into the kitchen.

After about 20 minutes, the old man returns from the kitchen and hands his wife a plate of bacon and eggs.

She stares at the plate for a moment.

"Where's my toast?" she says.

[Adriana Mangus]

Dear Grace: I agree with most of what you have to say about the medical industry and Michael Moore in general. I do not want to start a war with words but I won't like an "Universal Health Insurance"

People like you and I; in the event that one day there is one- UHI- would have to wait until our doctor's papers are first; submitted, review and approved.

Having UHI means "everyone" would be entitled to have acces to everything that relates to medical industry. Whether they have contributed to the system, or not.

I came to the states about 24 years ago, never, ever, have received anything from the government, and am not going to pay for anyone to obtain benefits at my expense.

Michael Moore is merely in the industry to make money. Some of his "suggestions" are well taken, others; you just have to disregard.

I really do not see anything wrong with our medical industry/government. Other countries are worse off than ours.

We are a clear example of the collaboration between the pharmaceutical companies/ government; without them we wouldn't be here.

Pharmaceutical companies must make money to stay in business, they put out tens of thousand of dollars experimenting with new drugs, some of them never get approval by the FDA. People do not know that, or do not care. I do.

I agree with you about Michael's selection of countries, why Europe vs USA. Again, he's just causing controversy to make money. In a way, he's a little instigator and agitator.

People in Flint, MI love him, they financed his very first movie. It's a shame that Flint is becoming a ghost town, as people are leaving in pursue
of greener pastures. Is the Auto industry to blame? I wonder if Michael is working in a docummentary about it. Mmmm?

My husband came home and untied my arms. So be it!

Two things are generally used to judge a health care system:

The cost per capita to provide insurance to all citizens.

The results of those costs in terms of improvement in citizen health, longevity, and quality of life.

The organizations that rate the health care in various countries base their analysis primarily on the above two factors, although they use other factors as well.

We are rated 37 in the world based on these factors. Our costs are much higher than anywhere in the world, per capita, yet we have 45 million people without insurance. (These are facts, not opinions.)

In addition, our individual experiences and our family's experiences in judging national health care systems (mine included, so I'll do my mea culpa right now) are only relevant as they apply to us. One of Moore's problems in "Sicko," in my view, is that he does what lots of us are doing here, he just uses a larger base--twenty thousand experiences in his case. When the World Health Organization comes up with its ratings, it uses entire populations to substantiate its ratings.

And to correct another misunderstanding. Cuba does not have a highly rated medical system. How could it? It's been under embargo for some forty years. It is, in fact, two slots below ours in its rating--39 I believe. Moore used Cuba for one reason only, to stir up talk and controversy. And he's been very successful. But, for me, that is one of the major weaknesses in his film. But as Vicki pointed out, controversy does get things done.

As I said earlier, I have wonderful care here, under Medicare, which is, by the way, a universal health care system based on age. So I'm taken care of. My concern is that other people are not taken care of. I wish only that everyone, not just me and mine, could have good and affordable health care. And if that makes me some type of radical, so be it!

[MCS]

Let me make clear that this is only one experience. my uncle's. but it is a true story on the Switzerland. His wife likes to be treated in Frankfurt, not Switzerland.

Anything on Germany.

my cousin travels international. he's one of those big wig marketing vps. this is just to emphasize that he has available more than me a commoner traveling. Now he was very sick in Barcelona and could not even get antibiotics from a doctor. had to wait to come back into the states to get taken care of.

i went to australia a few years ago, my experience was not good. I was only able to get some antihistamine for my daughter after searching every pharmacy in town and one pharmacist taking pity on me - an american without any prescription for benadryl. the national paper at that time, 2003, had several editorials critizing their universal care. I know there are several aussies on board and know better than me on whatever is the right info.

so different countries, different experiences

MCS ( maria)

[sarah]

The first time I got cancer, I lived and worked in the USA - I'm American, and even with so-called great insurance, my husband had to fight a lot to get me what I needed and I'm not convinced I got the best advice although the hospital and surgeons were great.
The second time was in France - what a difference! immediately they said since you're going to have chemo and radiation and have cancer we'll take everything to do with this disease into account and pay for it 100%.
If someone's friend is complaining about the taxes (who doesn't) they are probably making a lot of money and aren't being treated for a deadly disease.
As a retired person living by chance and choice in France and now having gotten sick again, I'm glad and grateful I'm here.
I don't think I could afford to move back to the USA because of my health situation.
Now my husband needed very delicate surgery on his feet and he paid the specialist 500 euro which is considered extremely expensive here for the surgery on both feet and then paid 30% of the hospital stay (2 days) - the hospital was 43 euro for a 2 person room and meals in a private clinic. He also had to pay 30% for the prescriptions which also would be considered a minor cost in the USA.
I agree they used to over prescribe drugs but don't we all always ask "hwat's this for and is it absolutely necessary?"
And here there is no economic level of difference between someone wealthy or poor or unemployed - it takes a lot of the stress out of being ill to know at least you don't have to fight an insurance company. (that doesn't mean you may not have to fight for care outside of the usual protocol). I've been receiving Herceptin for over 3 years now and hope to continue.
by the way, the USA newspapers, rated France #1 for health care!
that said, the USA has great medical research and doctors (my father, a doctor worked there) and doctors are used to patients checking everything out on the web! Here, they know their foreign patients do!
I had a French friend with cancer who hated her doctors in Paris but loved her doctors in LA!

The most important thing though is that you, the patient, believe you are getting the best medical treatment possible regardless of price or income or insurance.
Stay strong and keep up the good fight.

[MJo]

I honor everyone who works hard and stands on their own two feet, but one day I may need help, so I will extend help while I can. I don't want to live in a country like the third world countries where the well off who "stand on their own two feet" can afford health and people who can't afford to pay for their health care die. That may be the Libertarian ideal, but I hope most Americans don't think that way.

[naturaleigh]

Thank you ladies for the replies. This movie is my first encounter with Michael Moore, so I know nothing about him. I do not watch tv or go to movies much, so I am not in the know. I hope I did not offend anyone by bring up his name.

His movie did document other country's other than England. I mentioned England because I knew we had at least one member from there. He also visted Canada, France and Cuba, all of which had free health care.

I am not the most intelligent person in the world by far, but it does not make sense to me how an insurance company can determine whether or not a procedure; prescribed by your doctor, is medically essential for your treatment. The insurance people are not doctors and should not be able to deny payment on any treatment.

There were many things in the movie that "hit home". I was so thankful that I was assigned a paradigm nurse (through my insurance company), to make sure that all my procedures were pre-authorized. Had they not been pre-autorized, my insurance would not have covered the procedure and I would have owed the insurance company $200. That is absurb!! When you are going through a rough time like this, or having a baby, or in an accident where you have to go to the hospital, or many other things that need to be pre-authorized, the last thing you are thinking about is your insurance.

It really angers me that I have invested 20+ yrs paying for insurance and not using it, then when I need it, it is like pulling teeth and nails to get the benefits that I should be initialed to without hassell. There are alot of things that need to be changed, and I think if we were all to pull togther something could be done about the cost and the aggrevation of the system we all surrender to. The health care, along with everything else is continually skyrocketing with less benefits to the people. It is my hope the Michael Moore stirs up enough controversy to at least start some type of change with the raising cost of health care.

One gentlemen from France stated that "here (France) the government is afraid of the people, in the US the people are afraid of the goverment."

I don't know that "free" health care could work in the US, but one should pay premimums according to his/her means. The way it is now, if you make $15,000 per yr you pay the same amount of someone who makes $120,000 or more a yr.

[MJo]

RE: Health Care in Cuba
I work with a woman who went to Cuba to visit her father who was dying of heart failure (How she got in the country is another story). She says the doctors are very good and health care is available for all. But when she and her family took him to the emergency room in a small Cuban city after he had a seizure, she had to keep fanning the flies away from his face. I'm not kidding.

[MCS]

I will not give any time time to this guy.

I am from Cuba and let me tell you what they have.

Foreigners are treated in different hospitals than the countrymen.

Doctos in Cuba are atking every opportunity they have to take classes or conferences outside the country to take refuge in another.

My aunt went into the hospital and had to take her own bedshhets for the bed because they did not have any. They did not even wash them so our family would change the sheets take home and wash in a basin ( no washing machines or clorox!) and re use

They did not and could not provide any antibiotics for her infection. We had to buy them in the black market and send over for her. By the time they got there, she had died from the infection. The antibioitics went to another person we did not know because the government took possession of them.

My cousin who was a dentist there and now lives here, did not have materials, instruments to work with.

Then I have my uncle in switzerland. He used to work for the UN. He comes to the Palmer institute in Florida for his eyes and pays for it out of his own money because the quality is so bad in Switzerland.

so yes. We have insurance to pay and maybe unfair but I would not trade this system for another one that is gvernment funded.

Thank you for letting me speak

XOXO

MCS ( maria)

[Marilyn June]

How can anyone justify a unprovoked war costing billions of tax dollars every year and be against tax dollars for health coverage?

France has the #1 rated health care program in the world. We are somewhere in the 30s. England, and Italy are ahead of us.

Marilyn

[Adriana Mangus]

Maria: I never heard such a thing about Switzerland. Are you sure it was not another country..?..

Got to tell you folks, I'm keeping my mouth shut on this one, as I promised myself not to post any more of my political views on the board, just my cancer views. But I'm really champing at the bit!

I made my husband promise to tie my hands behind my back!

[tousled1]

The push in the United States for what is being called "Government Funded Insurance" is nothing short of socialized medicine. Having been exposed to socialized medicine whle living overseas I'm extremely thankful that here in the United States we have private insurance. There are hundreds of insurance companies, all of which are different. Some have good reputations and some don't. Having socialized medicine is not the answer and it certainly will not be free! This is my personal opinion and everyone of us is entitled to their opinion.

[MCS]

Ay ay ay!!!

So many views and we are so lucky that we can express them freely here.

but to those to whom it applies, please do not send me 2 pages of a political opinion to my email address again. Too much stress ))))))))))))))))

Love you

MCS ( maria)