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Old 03-14-2006, 08:13 PM   #1
mom22girlz
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DESPERATELY need advice

Went to the oncologist tonight. I am more confused than ever. Since I am
stage 1, he leans toward only tamoxofen. He believes the side effects of chemo are greater than the benefit gained by a stage 1 person. But, he would give me chemo if I wanted. Said herceptin is only given in conjuction with chemo so I would not need that even tho I am her+. Asked about the oncotype test and he didn't feel the information was anymore than what we already know. Said if I got a second opinion he feels it would be 99% in favor of chemo, but he has been around a long time (will retire in August) and he knows it isn't always the best choice. I don't know what to think. I feel worse rather than better. will call for a second opinion tomorrow, but...... Please offer any advice. I need it so. I am 47 years old, premenopausal, pr+ er+ her+++ stage 1. thanks. susan
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Old 03-14-2006, 08:40 PM   #2
AlaskaAngel
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NCCN guidelines

Susan,

It takes a while to work your way through some of this stuff because it IS complicated, but see if you can get through the guidelines for breast cancer care. Come back here if you have trouble and ask any questions. It was very hard for me to decide to do chemo and I wish someone would have told me about the guidelines when I was trying to decide. Let me know if this doesn't work.

http://www.nccn.org/patients/patient.../3_work-up.asp

AlaskaAngel

P.S. look under the "decision tree" for stage I, II, III.

Last edited by AlaskaAngel; 03-14-2006 at 08:41 PM.. Reason: To add more specific direction
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Old 03-14-2006, 09:06 PM   #3
Sherryg683
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I would definatley get a second opinion. Her2+ is a more agressive cancer and from everything I've read, it should be treated more agressively. You are still young and have a long time to live, I wouldn't take a chance on it...sherryg683
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Old 03-14-2006, 09:40 PM   #4
Bev
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Hi, I'm stage 2, triple pos, node neg and 47 and finishing rads. I did chemo, and am not an expert. From your stage and tumor size, no chemo may be appropriate. I did get the impression from the onc, radiologist and surgeon that being relatively young and premenopausal would be a reason to treat the bc more aggressively as it is more likely to come back at you or have more years for it to do so. I guess they also figure your risk for side effects will be lower at your age. Who knows? Your path report should also have a grade, (one scale is 1 to 9)to tell you how the cells look. So in any case get the 2nd opinion and perhaps the oncotype test. You have to make the decisions with the facts you have today and go with it. I'm sorry you're in the gray zone as the mental stress must be much higher than those of us whose path made the decision easier. BB
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Old 03-14-2006, 09:52 PM   #5
karenann
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Susan,

What is the size and grade of your tumor? I am a stage 1, node negative, grade 3, er/pr+, 1.3cm tumor and Her2+++. I did dose dense, AC & T chemo, rads, one year of Herceptin and Aromasin. I would get a 2nd opinion.

Karen
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Old 03-14-2006, 10:32 PM   #6
jsattaw
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Hi Susan --

I agree with the others but at some point you must be in charge and confident in your medical team. As someone mentioned on another thread, our physicians "work" for us and we pay their salary. Once you feel confident in how aggressive you want to be with your treatment, you just need to find a doctor who will support your opinion and reaffirm your decision.

I did a lot of research and wanted to be the most aggressive in my treatment for a recurrence after 7 years -- I did a mast with reconstruction, 4 treatments of Taxol, a complete hysterectomy, Herceptin for 1-year, and am also on Arimedex. After my initial diagnosis for Stage 1 - IDC, I did a lumpectomy with radiation (1998) but didn't know I was Her2+.

Try to ask yourself what course of treatment will provide you with the highest level of peace of mind and enable you to move beyond treatment with less concern about recurrence. Unfortunately, this is an inexact science and doctors like us, have their own opinions as to what works. Also, each of us are individuals and our bodies and cancers are different. So...no one has a crystal ball.

Good luck with your decision -- thanks for allowing us to provide our opinions.

Jill
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Old 03-15-2006, 05:03 AM   #7
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I have NOT been following your posts and am not a sufferer, but have done quite a lot of very amateur reading on the general subject, and these are things that have struck me.

I must emphasise that every one is different and this disease appears to be more and more a disease that is subtly different in every patient.

The following have struck me in my wanders;

1. Cancers take up to ten years to develop, which suggests on the AVERAGE you do not need to panic, and have a sensible time frame in which to make treatment decisions without compomising you position to any significant extent.

2. Resistance CAN develop to chemo treatments which has two implications - the cell has mutated to avoid the impact of the treatment - and that is one more treatment off the protection list.

3. If you can afford them/ have access to them diagnostic tools are improving MRI CAT etc.

4. Various tumour markers are available to try and give you an idea what is happening in your body.

5. Chemo can have implications the immune system etc.

6. Chemo has been shown to have very positive results.

7. Local and bilateral recorrence can be treated. Spread to the rest of the body is the real problem. Cancer that has spread may not be the same as the original.

8. Statisitics are hard to find an pin down, but it is important to kep an eye on survival, as several treatments help with local spread but have not been shown to make a huge difference to survival.

9. It is reported that we all have potentially cancerous cells in our body - it is a question of the bodies ability to deal with them.

10 Check out the "life extension" site where they have some interesting thoughts on steps to take as part of a decision process.

11. Life style factors can influence risk. My personal crusade is to get people to balance their omega threes and sixes, and take some fish oil for the DHA EPA as the body is not very good at it. Women may need it more than men. If nothing else it is established and accepted that it will help with cardiovascular health, which is pretty fundamantal, and because so much of the bodies mechano appears to be similar bits used in different ways.

The decision must be yours. It must be hugely difficult. As an outsider it seems to me that you need to inform yourself as much as you can before taking the decsions you take to try and minimise the what if's and if only's afterwards.

There is lots of information on this site. Talk to your adviser on the impact of a short delay to allow you time to sort things out. Try checking out soms books in the library.

Re tamoxifen there is suggestion that it may be contraindicative for those that express high Cyclin D1. There are posts on this site you may want to check out and show to your adviser referring to trials. (use search engine)

It does take a little while and quite a lot of reading to begin to get a wider perspective on which a decision might be based.

I would reiterate that these are only general observations that have particularly struck me and no more.

So difficult for you


RB
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Old 03-16-2006, 03:41 AM   #8
Roz
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It is very hard trying to decide about treatment. however, i would like you to consider the options of chemo-non-chemo overall in the process of your life. chemo will lay you down for a period, and you will recover. You will be able to put this all behind you (all things being equal) and as you progress through your recovery and from time to time panic about a recurrence, you will be able to say to youself -- I DID THE BEST I COULD POSSIBLY DO TO SURVIVE- no more, no less.
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Old 03-16-2006, 08:59 AM   #9
LANI
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Rhonda H Was Kind Enough To Post

an article referring to Dr Slamon's talk at San Antonio regarding the her2neu
TopoIIa group of patients as the one's Dr. Slamon would like in the future to select out to give anthracyclines too (he thinks he can spare the rest, avoiding cardiotoxicity associated with combining Herceptin with anthracyclines)

Anthracyclines are drugs such as epirubicin, doxyrubicin, etc.

HERE IT IS:
Survival Benefit in Early Stage Breast Cancer of Herceptin Plus a Chemotherapy Regimen Lacking Adriamycin

View Article Vol: 5 | Issue: 1 | January 2006 | News

News:


Study is the Fourth to Show a Significantly Reduced Risk of Disease Recurrence

Pairing the targeted therapy Herceptin with chemotherapy in patients with early stage breast cancer significantly increases disease-free survival time in women who test positive for a genetic mutation that results in a particularly aggressive form of the disease, according to a large, international study.

The study also tested Herceptin with a chemotherapy combination that eliminated Adriamycin, an anthracycline commonly used to treat breast cancer but a drug that, when used with Herceptin, can result in heart damage. That regimen also significantly improves survival.

Conducted by the Breast Cancer International Research Group (BCIRG), this study is the fourth large clinical trial to show that Herceptin plus chemotherapy significantly reduces risk of disease recurrence in early breast cancer. Results were presented Thursday at the San Antonio Breast Cancer Symposium by Dr. Dennis Slamon, co-chairman of BCIRG, director of Clinical/Translational Research at UCLA's Jonsson Cancer Center and the scientist whose laboratory and clinical research laid the groundwork for the development of Herceptin.

"The chemotherapy combinations we tested with Herceptin proved to be superior to the best available standard therapy for early breast cancer," said Slamon, principal investigator for the BCIRG study. "This further illustrates the promise of targeted therapies and moves us closer to our goal of minimizing the toxicity of therapy while maximizing efficacy."

Herceptin is effective in women with HER-2 positive breast cancer, about one in four diagnosed with the disease every year. HER-2 positive breast cancer patients have a particularly aggressive form of the disease, a poorer prognosis and shorter survival times, said Slamon, who discovered the link between HER-2 positivity and aggressive breast cancer in 1987.

The study enrolled 3,222 women from all over the world with early stage HER-2 positive breast cancer between March 2001 and February 2004. Patients received one of three regimens:

The standard therapy of Adriamycin and Carboplatin followed by Taxotere (ACT).

An experimental regimen of Adriamycin and Carboplatin followed by Taxotere and one year of Herceptin (ACTH).

An experimental regimen of Taxotere and Carboplatin with one year of Herceptin (TCH).

Reduction in risk of disease recurrence, the study's primary endpoint, was 51 percent in the ACTH study arm and 39 percent in the TCH arm.

"This is very promising news for the 250,000 women worldwide, including 50,000 in the United States, who will be diagnosed every year with this aggressive breast cancer," Slamon said.

The BCIRG study also resulted in two other important findings. Researchers knew that giving Herceptin with Adriamycin resulted in heart damage in some patients, the most severe of which was congestive heart failure. It was theorized, however, that this damage was not long lasting. But the BCIRG study showed the cardiac toxicity was significant and still persisted for more than 18 months at the date of the last follow up, Slamon said. This is vital information for doctors and patients to have when deciding which treatment regimen to use.

Of the 3,222 patients in the study, 306 experienced a greater than 10 percent loss of heart function. Of those, 91 patients (9 percent) were enrolled in the ACT study arm; 82 patients (8 percent) were in the TCH arm; and 180 patients (17.3 percent) were in the ACTH arm, which paired Adriamycin with Herceptin.

"We've always known that the major safety problem with Herceptin has been cardiac toxicity when it is used with Adriamycin," Slamon said. "When breast cancer patients lose their hair, it grows back. When we suppress their bone marrow, that comes back, too. Heart failure, however, is a much larger problem, especially if it does not improve over time."

The good news, Slamon said, is that Herceptin given with the chemotherapy combination that eliminates Adriamycin is still significantly superior to the best available chemotherapy alone, reducing risk of relapse by 39 percent. That gives physicians and patients worried about heart damage an additional option.

The study's other important finding is that a subset of HER-2 positive patients - about 35 percent - also have amplification of a gene called topo II, which makes them more likely to respond to Adriamycin. As Herceptin targets HER-2, Adriamycin targets topo II. Patients who test positive for amplification of both HER-2 and topo II might opt for the drug regimen with Adriamycin, risking heart damage in exchange for a better response to therapy.

Slamon said a test that indicates both HER-2 and topo II amplification is being developed so doctors will better be able to tell which patients should be on which drug regimen.

"Women will have the information they need to decide if the risk is worth the benefit," Slamon said.

At UCLA's Jonsson Cancer Center, doctors are testing Herceptin in combination with other targeted therapies such as the angiogenesis inhibitor Avastin. That, Slamon said, may be the future of breast cancer therapy - the elimination of chemotherapy.

"In the future, we're likely to come up with therapies that are very much improved over what we have now and offer maximum efficacy with little or no toxicity," Slamon said.

UCLA's Jonsson Comprehensive Cancer Center comprises more than 240 researchers and clinicians engaged in research, prevention, detection, control, treatment and education. One of the nation's largest comprehensive cancer centers, the Jonsson center is dedicated to promoting research and translating the results into leading-edge clinical studies. In July 2005, the Jonsson Cancer Center was named the best cancer center in the western United States by U.S. News & World Report, a ranking it has held for six consecutive years.

For more information on the Jonsson Cancer Center, visit our web site at www.cancer.mednet.ucla.edu

Kim Irwin

Director, Media Relations

UCLA's Jonsson Cancer Center

(310) 206-2805








Good luck!
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Old 03-16-2006, 11:26 AM   #10
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Concur with Lani

Nice research presented Lani...ask for the TOPOII test to determine if AC therapy would be indicated. Should you test negative for TOPOII, perhaps you may consider the less toxic chemotherapy,CMF which may be indicated with your relatively low risk of relapse. And let me just say, CMF has proven to decrease her2 bc relapse, albeit somewhat less than AC. See for yourself, google the research paper from Edith Perez for confirmation of this if you like.

Additionally, perhaps you would consider the 9 week regimen of Herceptin which had no cardiac risks in three year follow-up. I know that a clinic in FL is offering this option for very early stage her2+ bc and for late adjuvant Herceptin. Nine weeks may be adequate for those in the gray zone where the relative benefits of herceptin adjuvant therapy is unknown and the side effects of therapy less. By the way, I had very early stage her2+ breast cancer too and took CMF and tried the late adjuvant 9 week Herceptin Regimen.
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