High I.Q. required??

This is not so important as the rest of cancer info for this message board...

Do you honestly believe that it takes only a high I.Q. to become a good doctor? Could one just study as hard enough as possible to get his/her undoubtedly well-deserved M.D. degree??

At my cancer clinic, a nurse practitioner is typically the person whom their patients see in their appointments. The oncologist rather visits the patient only occasionally, like every 3 or 6 months or so. While I was having chemo at my 1st diagnosis 2 years ago, I would always see my nurse practitioner 1st before going up for every infusion I had. I think I saw my oncologist maybe only 4 or 5 times during chemo treatment that summer through autumn.

The fact that it might require to have a high I.Q. in order to be a good doctor just struck me -- when, on the same day, my nurse practitioner had to take a quick look in my file for the spelling of my last name (she was doing some paperwork in my presence), my oncologist soon afterwards walked in, my files still remaining in the exam room, and she quickly made out a presription for me, without even checking my files for my last name! And that was about a year later, after I'd become their patient at the clinic.

Additionally, my surname is definitely not as popular as Smith or Miller around here; it is rather actually as popular as it could get in Portugal, very much like you would see there was about 10 pages long here on the Yellow Pages. Based on my own experience, it would instead take even just a close friend a good number of years before she would finally be able to spell it correctly!

There are many different kinds of intelligence and IQ is only a measure of specific kinds of intelligence. IQ is also not static as once believed. Unless there is a learning issue, most students today do not take an IQ test. That being said, it takes more than academic intelligence to be a good physician, or to be effective in most careers.

Of course, we want health professionals who treat us often to know who were are, and to have a vested interest in our treatment outcome. I see my oncologist almost every three weeks when I have herceptin. I am thankful for the occasional break when he is busy, away, or I don't need to see him.

Jojo, you have brought up an important issue for discussion. I believe that medical schools are trying to address patient/doctor relationships more than they have in the past.

Best,
Barbara H.

I recently wrote about switching oncologists (within the same practice). I switched because my onco couldn't remember one bloody thing about me - even things we had talked about repeatedly (every visit - 15 visits in 10 months). One of these things was he always asked if I had children (I do) and then their ages. My oldest daughter and his oldest son graduated from the same high school together, went to the same college etc, etc. Every visit he would say " my oldest son just graduated from high school - he'd ask, which high school did your daughter go to... We moved on to - "my son just started his first year of college too, where does your daughter go... my son goes there too!!!") Every visit. I we had something in common.

I figured if after 15+ times he could not remember that, he would forget something (medically) important (and he did). We discussed that and he said it would never happen again (he ordered my 27/29 test and the lab drew the blood but never ran the test and he never noticed even though I called to ask for my results). The next visit after that he asked me "do you have children?"

I switched immediately. Unfortunately, he got angry (like I broke up with him). I ended up having to talk to him this weekend when I resumed getting my period out of the blue (and I needed some advice as I was taking Arimidex). He was on call this weekend. After talking about the medical problem, I told him I felt we needed to discuss why I left. I did not talk specifically about the "children" thing. I told him I felt that he was not interested in me and my case since he could never remember anything about me. He told me he has a lot of patients. I told him that every one of his patients deserves to have one thing remembered about them. He just left it at that - said he was never disinterested in my case and said he was sorry.

I am happy to have switched. My new doctor has everything at my gyno's office for me to get my oophorectomy in 3 weeks (now I really need it) and is on top of everything for me. I am not so sure the previous guy would have been.

Doctors may be book smart but it takes a lot, lot more. They need to look at the whole person and that they are treating someone with a life threatening illness too.

Best regards to all,

Becky

[StephN]

Dear Jojo and ladies -
You have raised such a good question and this is not the first time we discussed this here. But not in such a specific way.

Many people are "smart" as far as grades and testing went. I have someone close to me who was a straight A student right through university. But she lacks common sense - I call her "smart, but dumb." That is not an insult, but a description of her personality.

I have run into people in the medical profession like this as well. They can be taken aback by a simple question that seems so obvious to me! By now I am prepared for that reaction. However, NEVER does my medical oncologist take my questions less than seriously. He often has the same thing on his mind and we talk about it and maybe a course of action if needed. He is very "smart" as well as very empathetic. I knew I needed such a doctor when I got my diagnosis with the HER2+++, etc. He is extrememly hard to get into and he made room for me, as I saw him for a 2nd opinion and his group is outside my normal medical group.

I think he saw something in me as an interesting patient, and we have been together fighting my disease for 5 years at this point. What happened to me with this disease was really outside my thinking at the onset of diagnosis. My med onc has been a very good guide for me and my husband throughout these 5 years.
(I do forgive his forgetting a few minor details, but he comes into our appt prepared and we don't waste time on refamiliarizing with my case or who I am.)

All the survivors here deserve such a doctor who will fight for their patient and cares without getting over a boundary line.

I agree so much with you Stephanie. Especially since I have now changed to a doctor who I know will help me cure myself (or at least live a longer life with quality). Sometimes I cannot believe I gave my previous doctor so many chances even when I knew some of the things he said or did where not current thinking. The forgetfulness and absentmindedness where outside the realm of being busy or disinterested.

I am glad you have a great doctor and I am looking forward to what that is like.

Best wishes,

Becky

Becky, I cannot believe how dense your previous doctor was! One more comment on the IQ issue--there are a couple components to intelligence that I have heard mentioned in this thread...IQ, grades, common sense, etc. Jojo's doc sounds like she has a photographic memory as well -- a surgeon friend of mine has one-- he is extremely book smart (IQ) and has a great deal of common sense, a caring manner, but also has what some call a photographic memory (I can sometimes stump him on rock & roll trivia, but not often -- he remembers everything). Some people have all those components and some only have one or two. And everyone has them in varying degrees.

There's a great book out there that discusses some of these issues--it's called "Emotional Intelligence" -- it's a must-read.

You really have to have a higher than average IQ just to get to med school, but it takes a bit more than that to make it through and become a successful doctor. Many of the people in med school who have great personalities gravitate toward primary care, such as family practice, pediatrics, internal medicine or OB/GYN. The specialties, on average, attract more of the students who may not call themselves a "people person." But hopefully they evolve. When I worked in marketing for a large, multi-specialty clinic, part of the orientation that all new employees went through was watching the movie "The Doctor" -- some of you may have seen it--William Hurt stars as a cardiologist (if memory serves) who gets diagnosed with cancer. He then learns what it's like to be a patient in his own medical system. I think all docs should watch it once a year :-)

Boy am I wordy tonight!!!

Val

Well, I can see that my oncologist has a sharp memory, but more importantly her approach to cancer treatment is very aggressive. Basically, that's what I had been looking for when originally diagnosed.

Her bedside manners, however, does leave something to be desired. Although, I don't need to remind her of my profile every time she sees me. A plus on my side is that she's the director of breast cancer trials program in a large clinic, so she must be atop everything that is happening in breast cancer treatment.

I'm reminded of the game, Trivial Pursuit.
I worked with a woman who appeared to have amazing intelliegence.
She could race through the answers. Also a doctor impressed
my very intelligent, masters in social worker sis-in-law with the
same quick responses when playing the game.
I believe both of these people, who
lived alone, had amazing photographic memory, would
in their free time challenge themselves to later impress friends
and co-workers.


These days I'm much more worried about whether docs and nurses
are getting enough sleep, their mental health under the pressure.
I suppose, because I've been chronically fatigued for many
years and know the effect it has on perception, judgment, etc.
Too many people are living, sleep deprived. Add in
medication, illegal drugs, alcohol, illness.
Very scary.

Susan M (PA)