HER2 Support Group Forums - View Single Post - coaxing cancer cells to self-destruct (or at least get old and die)

Gina · 08-06-2007, 01:06 AM

Hi, Lani,

As usual, you are way out in front of the pack...smile. We are lucky to have you on OUR side...

I have been seeing other supporting documentation along the same lines you document in this thread and wondered if you had seen any documentation on the inverse relationship of her-2 and Tumor Necrosis Factor-alpha. TNF-alpha is a big player in generating normal cell apoptosis.

Basically if the her-2 protein increases, this causes, via a complex protein cascade that includes the proteins you mention above, Tumor necrosis factor-alpha to decrease which is not good, as the less TNF-alpha one has, the more cells can start becoming immortal--cancer like. The more TNF-alpha one has up to NORMAL limits of it, apoptosis or cell death, can easier occur, allowing the potential cancer cells to die a normal death. This is a proposed new means of how Herceptin may actually work, that hitherto, has not been elucidated.

What I am reading is suggesting...MIND YOU...only suggesting, that if you use Herceptin to down-regulate the her-2 over-expression, the TNF-alpha will come back up to normal levels on its own, all other things being equal of course, and apoptosis will happen automatically...that simple.

In my own 10 - year history with this illness, I have real life experience that would lead me to conclude that this is NOT too far off the mark. For instance, when I first had mets to the liver in 99, only 5 or 6 doses of Herceptin dropped my CA 27/29 tumor marker back into range and the twelve or so lesions on both lobes of my liver, the size of quarters, nickles and dimes, well, just simply disappeared. I have fortunately, or unfortunately as the case may be, been able to repeat this identical sequence of events 4 or 5 times now, using only varied doses of herceptin. Could it really be that simple??

It also makes me tend to agree with Believer? who posted something about us perhaps pulling out the big guns too soon in a recent post. For many years, I have thought that the hercepin alone would work better in some patients if the dose was targeted directly to the patients own tumor burden and not to some generalized protocol...but...sigh...smile..that is only me...smile... We have discussed and argued the point before, but I think that someone with say, a serum her-2 of 600 or more is in a totally different catagory than say someone with only 22 or so. To me, throwing the standard 2mg/kg weekly dose of Herceptin at the gal who has a tumor burden over 600 is like throwing a water balloon at a Towering Inferno, but still of course certainly way better that doing nothing at all...

Have any studies at all been done to individualize the HERCEPTIN DOSE to the tumor burden of the actual patients...or as Believer points out, are we just all too soon, reaching for the big guns????

In my own experience, her-2 levels have a mathematical symetry to uncontrolled cell - growth and reproduction patterns of bacteria--in other words, when the numbers go on a run, they tend to rise exponentially, the same way cells and bacteria tend to replicate.

Ideas any one??

Just wondering,
Gina

08-06-2007, 01:06 AM	#5
Gina Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 197	Is there really and inverse relationship between her-2 and TNF-alpha Hi, Lani, As usual, you are way out in front of the pack...smile. We are lucky to have you on OUR side... I have been seeing other supporting documentation along the same lines you document in this thread and wondered if you had seen any documentation on the inverse relationship of her-2 and Tumor Necrosis Factor-alpha. TNF-alpha is a big player in generating normal cell apoptosis. Basically if the her-2 protein increases, this causes, via a complex protein cascade that includes the proteins you mention above, Tumor necrosis factor-alpha to decrease which is not good, as the less TNF-alpha one has, the more cells can start becoming immortal--cancer like. The more TNF-alpha one has up to NORMAL limits of it, apoptosis or cell death, can easier occur, allowing the potential cancer cells to die a normal death. This is a proposed new means of how Herceptin may actually work, that hitherto, has not been elucidated. What I am reading is suggesting...MIND YOU...only suggesting, that if you use Herceptin to down-regulate the her-2 over-expression, the TNF-alpha will come back up to normal levels on its own, all other things being equal of course, and apoptosis will happen automatically...that simple. In my own 10 - year history with this illness, I have real life experience that would lead me to conclude that this is NOT too far off the mark. For instance, when I first had mets to the liver in 99, only 5 or 6 doses of Herceptin dropped my CA 27/29 tumor marker back into range and the twelve or so lesions on both lobes of my liver, the size of quarters, nickles and dimes, well, just simply disappeared. I have fortunately, or unfortunately as the case may be, been able to repeat this identical sequence of events 4 or 5 times now, using only varied doses of herceptin. Could it really be that simple?? It also makes me tend to agree with Believer? who posted something about us perhaps pulling out the big guns too soon in a recent post. For many years, I have thought that the hercepin alone would work better in some patients if the dose was targeted directly to the patients own tumor burden and not to some generalized protocol...but...sigh...smile..that is only me...smile... We have discussed and argued the point before, but I think that someone with say, a serum her-2 of 600 or more is in a totally different catagory than say someone with only 22 or so. To me, throwing the standard 2mg/kg weekly dose of Herceptin at the gal who has a tumor burden over 600 is like throwing a water balloon at a Towering Inferno, but still of course certainly way better that doing nothing at all... Have any studies at all been done to individualize the HERCEPTIN DOSE to the tumor burden of the actual patients...or as Believer points out, are we just all too soon, reaching for the big guns???? In my own experience, her-2 levels have a mathematical symetry to uncontrolled cell - growth and reproduction patterns of bacteria--in other words, when the numbers go on a run, they tend to rise exponentially, the same way cells and bacteria tend to replicate. Ideas any one?? Just wondering, Gina