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THANK YOU ANDI!!

I REALLY needed to read and REBUKE the NEGATIVE self talk..."I'm afraid, I wish it wasn't me...etc" talk....!!!

I am the type of person who truly does have a positive outlook on life...I am very spiritual and cling to my faith!!!

I was hit hard way back in Oct finding a small pea, 2 lumpectomies (same path report), then a mastectomy with a final DX of 1/4 postive lymph nodes, and a 2.7cm tumor...had an expander...week after mastectomy, incision infected, expander out...OH, also, during surgery, a lesion was found on my vocal chord, just this week, had ENT appt, THANK YOU LORD, NOTHING FOUND!!!
Just had port placed, will start journey next week of TCH chemo as well as celebrate being 50!!

Thanking God again that today, I woke up, could breathe, walk and talk...how I "used" to take everything for "granted" as I'm SURE I'm speaking for so many of us...

Okay, I'm way too new to this group I love...just had to express myself...

Can you please tell me some of the supplements and ANY of you that would be very helpful as I begin...I'm getting my list together...

Thanking each and everyone of you...

Hello Susan,

Here is the list of supplements that I take: COQ10 (said to help the heart especially if you are taking Herceptin), a multivitamin, Milk Thistle 240 mg (for the liver), Vitamin D3 2000, Cranberry-450 mg, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Glucosamine 2000, Calcium 1200 mg. Hope this helps. Drink LOTS of water through this; you can get pretty dehydrated.

Take good care,

Jackie

Hey Cool Breeze,

You count with me and I have been blessed by "knowing" you through this site. Sometimes our purpose in this life is too difficult to discern, but trust me you affect many, inspire many, support many, bless many...

I think you live large. You do do far more than just survive.

Gosh, I've had so many surgeries, I don't 'commemerate' any of them... :)

Certain dates do bring back memories, especially the first diagnoses.

But I think the surgery date is still the most significant because nobody can be certain until the patient wakes up from anesthesia ... (I had stayed in ICU for 10 days after my first [brain] surgery)

Such an interesting thread, Ladies. How we define this disease and its effects on us is colored by so many different experiences and personalities. I, very personally, consider myself a "survivor" if I make it to the end of the day and get to say that last prayer of thankfulness for that day. I started looking at stats for "causes of death" once when I was doing chemo because I was so sure that cancer would be the death of me. I just sat and read and laughed - my chances were greater for dying in a car wreck, falling in the tub, and even dying from complications of the flu. So, I guess it's just perspective. I've lost two dear, and supposedly "healthy", friends since I was diagnosed with cancer. I survived today - and for that I'm grateful and eager for tomorrow.

MY PRAYER FOR SURVIVAL

I AM WOUNDED, BUT I WILL SURVIVE. I AM DEEP IN THE WOODS, BUT I AM NOT LOST. MY BODY ACHES WITH THE DEATH OF MY CANCER CELLS, BUT I AM STRONG, BRAVE AND DETERMINED. THE STORM WILL NOT TOUCH MY CORE. I WILL NOT LET IT! MY ESSENCE IS CALM AND POISED. MY WILL IS GREAT AND SHALL TRIUMPH. I WILL BE STEADFAST. THE BEST IS YET TO COME.

DELAY IS NOT DENIAL. THOUGH MY DESIRED RESULTS ARE NOT NOW AT HAND, THAT DOES NOT MEAN I HAVE FAILED. I WILL NOT BE DEFEATED IN THIS STRUGGLE. THE TANGIBLE EVIDENCE OF MY EFFORTS LIES BEFORE ME. MY INNER “KNOWING” TRUSTS THAT THIS IS SO. IT WILL BE. AS I EXPECT THE BEST, SO IT WILL COME. IT IS A UNIVERSAL LAW.

WHEN A GUSTY WIND BLOWS THROUGH MY LIFE, I WILL RETREAT TO MY CORE! I WILL NOT BREAK. MY SPIRIT WILL NOT BE BROKEN. THE CANCER IN MY BODY CANNOT TOUCH MY SOUL! I AM DILIGENTLY STANDING GUARD.

I WILL NOT MISTAKE WHAT I KNOW FOR ALL THERE IS. I AM NOT IN COMPLETE CONTROL, AND THAT IS OKAY. WHAT I CAN CONTROL ARE MY THOUGHTS AND HOW I WILL VIEW AND FACE THIS BITTER LOT. WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO ME DOES “NOT” DEFINE ME. IT IS HOW I RESPOND THAT WILL TELL WHO I TRULY AM. I AM A POSITIVE ENTITY. I WILL NOT ALTER MY BELIEF SYSTEM. I AM STRONG, BRAVE AND DETERMINED. I WILL SHOW OTHERS THE WAY. I WILL TEACH MY CHILDREN TO FACE ALL ADVERSITY WITH GRACE AND COURAGE. I WILL DO IT FOR MYSELF AND FOR THEM. THIS IS A CHOICE I CAN MAKE. THIS IS THE CHOICE I MUST MAKE. I WILL LEAD THE WAY, DIRECT MY STEPS, MY MANNER AND MY LIFE.

WHEN I AM GRIPPED BY THE SORROW OF NOT BEING HERE ON EARTH WITH MY FAMILY, I MUST ERASE THAT NEGATIVITY. WHEN I CAN ONLY THINK HOW SAD IT WILL BE NOT TO BE HERE WITH THOSE I LOVE, I MUST REPLACE THOSE IMAGES WITH JOY-FILLED ONES. I VIVIDLY SEE MYSELF DANCING, SMILING AND LAUGHING JOYOUSLY AT MY TWO YEAR OLD GRANDDAUGHTER’S WEDDING! I WILL TAKE ALL MY DREADFUL THOUGHTS AND FEARS AND TOSS THEM TO THE WINDS.

CANCER IS NOT THE ENEMY. “FEAR” IS MY GREATEST FOE! THE RAVAGING EFFECTS OF CHEMOTHERAPY ARE NOT MY ENEMY. THE CHEMICAL DRUGS ARE MY LIFELINE PULLING ME THROUGH THE ROUGH WATERS. I WILL NOT DROWN. I WILL KEEP MY HEAD HIGH. I WILL KNOW AND ENRICH MY GRANDCHILDREN.

I HAVE SO MUCH TO LIVE FOR, TO BE GRATEFUL FOR. I AM TRULY BLESSED. I AM SO LUCKY. I CAN WALK AND TALK. I CAN FEED AND BATHE MYSELF. I CAN THINK. THESE SIMPLE GIFTS BRING ENORMOUS QUALITY TO MY LIFE AND JOY TO MY WORLD. I MUST SEE THE SUBLIME IN THE ORDINARY ALL AROUND ME. AS I SEE THE RADIANCE OF LIFE, THE DARKNESS WITHIN DISSOLVES.

WHAT ONE MAN HAS DONE, ANOTHER CAN DO. I CAN DO THIS! IT HAS BEEN DONE BY SOME. IT IS POSSIBLE. I WILL RELAX, BE STILL FROM DEEP WITHIN, THROUGHOUT MY ENTIRE BEING. THE QUIET MIND IS OPEN TO WISDOM AND TRUTH. I WILL TAKE A LONG, DEEP BREATH, HOLD IT, AND SLOWLY LET IT GO. AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN. PEACE WILL OVERCOME ME. I WILL QUIETLY VISUALIZE. THE POTENCY OF MY IMAGERY WILL TURN MY HOPES INTO REALITY. MY THOUGHTS HAVE THE POWER TO CREATE MY DESIRED DESTINY. PERSISTENCE IS MY MANTRA. I WILL SURVIVE. FOCUS. ENDURE!

I AM IN A PROCESS OF SPIRITUAL UNFOLDING. I MUST REMEMBER, WHEN ALL IS CALM, WE STAGNATE. I AM BECOMING MORE THAN I WAS, AND FOR THIS I AM GRATEFUL. THOUGH THIS WINDSTORM IS THE GREATEST CHALLENGE OF MY LIFE, I WILL STARE IT DOWN. I WILL DO MY VERY BEST. I WILL NOT GIVE IN, NEVER GIVE UP. MY HEART “KNOWS” THE TRUTH OF MY FAITH AND IT WILL GUIDE ME THROUGH. I AM NOT BEING TESTED; I AM BEING FORTIFIED. THERE ARE GREAT LESSONS TO BE LEARNED. I MUST NOT LET MY ATTENTION BE DIVERTED.

I MUST BE STRONG FOR THOSE WHO WILL COME AFTER ME AND WITH ME. I WILL MOVE AHEAD WITH MY HEART THOUGH MY HEAD SAYS IT CANNOT BE DONE. I AM HEALING BECAUSE I HAVE CHOSEN TO HEAL. LOVE FILLS MY SOUL. THE MORE I GIVE, THE MORE COMES BACK TO ME. THE POWER TO HEAL LIVES WITHIN ME. I MUST CHOOSE TO TAP INTO IT, NOT TO IGNORE ITS AWESOME FORCE, TO CONTINUALLY CALL UPON IT, TO FIGHT ON, EVERY HOUR OF EVERY DAY. I MUST REMAIN OPEN TO MIRACLES. THEY ARE THERE FOR THE ASKING!

EVERY THOUGHT IS A PRAYER. EVERY PRAYER IS A POTENTIAL MIRACLE.

I WILL BECOME A MIRACLE …… THIS I KNOW!
~ Written by me in December, 1998 ~ ~ ~ ~

My first grandchild was Bat Mitzvah (at the age of 13) in 2010! I was there! I lived a dream from many years ago. My second grandchild was Bar Mitzvah last October (2012). I now have 5 grandchildren. I lived to see my younger daughter married. MIRACLES DO HAPPEN. DESPITE WHAT THE EXPERTS SAY, WHAT THE ODDS DETERMINE. IF ONE HAS SURVIVED, SO TOO MAY YOU!!! I am saying this as a passionate prayer for each of my Sisters!

With my Love to you all,
Andi

Survivors -- P.S.

In August of 1998 my 4th stage lobular breast cancer erupted (after 3 yrs of calm). It recurred throughout my liver. Too many to count or do surgery on. What I had was inoperable and incurable. I would be on long term chemotherapy for the rest of my life.
My certainty and positivity dissolved. It felt crushed. I was caught in disbelief. Friends told me, You did it before, you'll do it again. I was devastated. I had run a triathlon and was not as strong or brave as I had been 3 yrs earlier.
This is when I was first tested for the her2 gene;
Herceptin was still in clinical trials.
September 28, 1998 the FDA fast-tracked the drug,
making it available to all metastatic bc patients.
I took Zoloft by day and Ativan at night to sleep. Sleep is essential to our well-being. It is a time our bodies heal and restore themselves. I read. I read books about conquering Souls and I tried, really hard to believe again. I developed a pleural effusion (fluid around my lungs) and a pericardial effusion (fluid around my heart. I could barely speak. Hardly walk. I held on to the walls. The deep pain in my arms and legs was unlike anything I'd ever experienced. The pain in my chest felt as if I was having a heart attack. I woke feeling as if I'd been walking on hot coals all night. I had neuropathy, dropping pretty much everything I touched, feeling the stinging pain of it.
I was determined to care for myself. I vowed that I would keep drinking water throughout the day, so as not to dehydrate. Every single day. I would make it to the kitchen and take a handful of nuts for sustenance (protein) or eat a banana. Then I would literally crawl up the stairs on all fours. Breathless from the effort. I would lay in bed and refuse to listen to the voice in my head. From reading I learned to listen instead to my Inner Voice.
It is our Spirit speaking to us.
It is wise and full of love.
We are never alone. Our Spirits walk with us,
are there to guide and protect us.
My Inner Voice told me daily to get myself into the shower.
I would hold the walls to get there.
I would steady my wobbly self touching the tiles.
Each day I would gently wash my face
and my cheeks would bleed.
I would have to blow my nose for a full half hour each morning, using half a box of tissues. Mucous and blood would pour out.
My husband would come home from work and look at me
lying in bed, weak and kind of out of it and say,
I can cancel our plans for dinner.
No. I intentionally made plans for dinner.
To give my husband the gift of getting out as he loved.
We'd meet friends and family
and I would revel in their hugs and their warmth, our shared laughter. With makeup, a wig, earrings and something comfortable I'd face the world for a few hours, then go home and climb back into bed. I KNEW this was all good for my Soul.
My Inner Voice told me so.
The bathroom drama was unrelenting. I knew where the nearest bathroom was wherever I went. I carried my load of pills to control it at least for a few hours. Wobenzym, liquid Imodium, lots of drugs my gastro pack offered, and the bottom line Roxicet because the codeine in it really worked
not only to dull the pain but to stop the runs.
In restaurants, I'd look around and see happy people enjoying themselves. They had no idea what I was going through.
They seemed so carefree.
They would buys tickets to go to the theater months away.
I would dare not.
They would plan vacations many months away.
I had my chemo schedule
and my issues,
my flirtation with death.
I no longer planned far into the future.
YET, I DID PLAN TO LIVE. TO GO THROUGH WHAT I HAD TO IN ORDER TO KILL THE CANCER. I ENVISIONED MYSELF FAR FAR INTO THE FUTURE.
BEING A PART OF MY DAUGHTERS LIVES AND JOYS.
LITERALLY LIVING TO SEE MY GRANDCHILDREN
ENTER THIS WORLD!
TALK ABOUT MIRACLES!!
But from August to Decemember of 1998, I lost my footing. I indulged in many a pity party. I was so scared. Confused. Beyond chemo brain. I suppose I was a bit lost... Then, finally, in December of that year, (after the numbing reality of my 2nd dx, I gained my footing again. And it was then that the words of my Prayer For Survival welled up in me and I quickly wrote them down.
It is my honor to share these words with everyone.

I finally became reconnected with my Spirit! We are each a Spirit -- with a mind and body. I was misidentifying myself, as I did prior to July '95, when initially dx. PLEASE SEE MY POST BELOW FROM 7/20/12 for further explanation on this.

Now when feeling undone, I read my prayer -- to reawaken my personal power. May my words help you reconnect, and become personally empowered. This is your birthright. Claim it!

You're not a hostage of misfortune! You're a Survivor. A shero. A warrior. You can do this.
Let your hugs and kisses linger...
Laugh often. Don't just smile -- beam (from your Soul, at your very core)... Walk and talk as best you can.
Feed and bathe yourself.
Let those simple goals lift you up.
Much Love,

Thank you Jackie for your input, I really appreciate it!! :)

for me.........the day i pretty much knew (confirmed "officially" the next day). but my radiologist was beyond blunt.

Yes is a world & in this world of yes live (skillfully curled) all worlds ... (e e cummings)

EVERY DAY I BEAT MY PREVIOUS RECORD FOR # OF CONSECUTIVE DAYS I'VE STAYED ALIVE.

Smile KNOWING you too can be a miracle.

KEEP BREAKING RECORDS, ONE DAY AT A TIME. HOPE YOU'LL READ MY PRAYER FOR SURVIVAL ( A B O V E ). IT CAME FROM THE DEPTHS OF MY BEING.

I explain my path in my P. S.-- also above...

We each need to share you highs and our lows. We're all here to love and help one another. It is my honor to support YOU!

ANDI

I use the date I was diagnosed.

Andi, your words are inspiring, encouraging and uplifting. Thank you for sharing your story. I hope they touch all that read them as they have me. You are an incredible woman!

Date of diagnosis.
Wow some of you sisters are taking lots of suplements.I will be happy if one of you can give me a tip as to how to make Hema swallow instead if :Chewing the cud"Allthe best

Swallowing all those darn pills is a laborious task. One at a time. I put them in the plastic lid of container (so they won't roll away), situate myself in front of them and the TV and try not to think about anything other than what I'm captivated with on the screen.

I find swallowing pills difficult to say the least. I BUY ONLY CAPSULES, OR SOFTGELS. NO TABLETS! Impossible for my throat. I think of peristalsis which I learned about in high school. The power of the natural wave like muscles in our throats to move food or pills to their destination. The key is to relax and not over think...

My longggg list of supplements come from my oncological integrative doc in Manhattan, who helped save my life in 1998 when I metastatisized with tumors throughout my liver. I will share the key ones for those who are interested. (I purchase through Vitacost.com, as their quality is excellent and their prices can't be beat.) Devoting the time in the AM with a meal, and again at 4 o'clock -- every single day takes tenacity to be sure. But I feel I am worth it. So are you! The investment is serious. To me, it's a matter of Life and Death.

I DRINK WATER (FOR ME -- ROOM TEMP IS BEST). I DRINK 10 8-OZ GLASSES OF WATER A DAY. BOTTLED, FILTERED WATER. EVERY SINGLE DAY. YOUR ORGANS WILL THANK YOU. SO WILL YOUR SKIN. YOU WILL STAY HYDRATED. I HAVE SEEN WHAT DEHYDRATION CAN DO TO A PERSON. IT CAN LITERALLY BE LIFE-THREATENING. IT IS YOUR JOB TO STAY HYDRATED, THROUGH NAUSEA AND FEELING LIKE YOU HAVE THE WORST FLU EVER.

I AM NOT A MEMBER OF THE MEDICAL PROFESSION. I AM A SURVIVOR. I HAVE GOOGLED EACH AND EVERY SUPPLEMENT I TAKE AND I TRY ONE FOR 3 DAYS, LISTEN TO MY BODY'S SIGNALS, AND THEN PROCEED TO THE NEXT SUPPLEMENT.

Alpha Lipoic Acid 300 AM/PM -- detoxifies liver, antioxidant, neutralizes free radicals, protects cells from damage -- AND RELIEVES MUSCLE PAIN -- IN COMBINATION WITH THE NEXT 2:
Co-Enzyme Q10 -- 150 AM/PM -- which also enhances immune system, prevents cancer cell proliferation, energizes, healthy heart, good gums -- RELIEVES MUSCLE PAIN -- IN COMBINATION WITH Alpha Lipoic Acid and L-Carnitine 500 AM/PM
L- Carnitine 500 AM/PM -- assists gastric absorption, energizes, heart healthy, immune booster -- RELIEVES MUSCLE PAIN
B-6 50 AM, heart healthy, energizes, helps repair nerve damage, good for skin
B-12 sublingual (3,000) -- energy

WHEN I HAVE MY COMPREHENSIVE BLOOD WORK DONE I ASK THAT B-12 AND D BE INCLUDED SO I CAN KEEP TABS ON BEING IN THE NORMAL RANGE. I save every report every written about me and keep them in a NO MORE CANCER file at home. I compare the new with the last, line by line.

That is how I -- yes "I" -- found my metastases. Asked for abdominal sono, which led to CT which led to biopsy. My tumor markers were still within normal range. But my liver enzymes were ever so slightly different from MY USUAL. Doc kept saying, I wouldn't worry about it. It is very very slight. Well, YOUR #s generally follow a trend. If they vary, I see red flags. Just saying...

C-1,000 w/bioflavonoids 1,000 -- enhances immune system, reduces recurrence of cancer
D-3 -- 50,000 a week. I take 10,000 over 5 days a week. For healthy bones, blocks breast cancer cell growth, meets your body's organs increasing need for D as we age. BE KIND TO YOUR ORGANS. THEY DEPEND ON YOU.
DL-Phenalalanine 500 AM empty stomach -- mood enhancer
Evening Primrose Oil 1,300 AM/PM -- relieves hot flashing, down-regulates HER2 by binding to extra cellular HER@ receptor, down regulates internal proliferation
Folic Acid 100 AM -- red cell booster, heart healthy
Gingko Biloba Extract 60 AM/PM -- mental alertness
Grapeseed Extract 150 AM -- anti-oxidant, can cross blood-brain barrier and protect brain and spinal nerves against free radical damage, enhances anti-tumor effect, protects liver, strengthen connective tissue, including heart system, supports immune system and slows aging
Resveratrol 250 AM/PM -- anti-oxidant, heart healthy, anti-cancer, HER2 blocker
NAC (N-Acetyle Cysteine) 600 AM -- supports healthy liver function, rids body of toxins
NADH -5Co Engzyme 1 (AM/PM) 1/2 hr before eating -- relieves chronic fatigue, boosts mental acuity
Omega 3 - 2,126 -- suppresses tumors, inhibits their growth, may slow or prevent recurrence of cancer, improves blood glucose, good for muscle/joint pain, anti-inflammatory, down regulates HER2 receptor
Phyto Formula -- 1 scoop w/OJ -- promotes energy BIG TIME, reduces chronic fatigue, boosts immune system and increases mental clarity + 1 banana a day!
Potassium Citrate 99 AM/PM -- bone healthy, energizes, healthy heart, prevents stroke
RM-10 Garden of Life Immune System Mushroom Blend VEGETARIAN CAPSULES -- AM/PM on empty stomach -- I take 2 instead of 3 a day because it's expensive but powerful in regulating and stimulating the immune system, anti-oxidant, detoxifier, reduces recurrence of bc
ZINC 30 anti-cancer

yes, there are studies and experts who disagree w/the findings above. i could have waited for more studies in '98, but my Inner Voice guided me to not go with mainstream conservative western medicine on this.

I began my '98 chemo regimen in September. In Oct I developed Shingles. Excruciatingly painful but the worst of it was -- no more chemo. Not till the Shingles is gone.

I "knew" I was 4th stage metastatic bc, now w/new information that I was HER2+... Highly aggressive form of cancer. Without the chemo, I feared I would die. My need was urgent, and put on hold.

So I took all my supplements, used multiple bottles of calamine lotion and pain meds and in 10 days returned to my onc. I was on the examination table. He smiled and asked how I was doing. Good I reported, smiling back. Well, let's see. I lifted my shirt. He walked around me in utter amazement. YOU'RE RIGHT. ALL THE PUSTULES HAVE DRIED UP! YOU CAN HAVE CHEMO!!
Hurray!!

I am happy with my bold decision to this day. I continue on my supplements. It is grueling. It is my job to be healthy and well. I take that responsibility very seriously. I chase away all negativity!

I go through inscanity when I am due, same as always, but I tell me -- this is yet another opportunity for me to see the fruit of all my hardwork. I try my best to hold my panic in check, along w/my husband's which is greater than mine. I get same day reports. And, I remain STABLE. No evidence of disease. 15 years from my metastasis. Almost 5 years off of Herceptin (after 10 years on). 18 years since my original 4 stage dx.

I have taken the time to share all this, because I believe in YOU. I support you with all my heart, my Sisters. With love always...

In my personal experience, I have learned that when facing adversity, I can consciously choose to go to my core, to my Essence, my Truest Self. And there I find Belief and Knowing. Beyond reason. This grants me strength, courage and determination. In turn, I find joy and serenity.

How grand Life is! How awesome is the world. How self-empowered we each are. How precious is our freedom...

Belief is so much deeper than just truth. Because truth is just things that we know, things that we can figure out, things that can be understood and proven. But that sort of thing is so limited; and that’s where faith begins.

It begins where knowing the truth leaves off. Belief is so much deeper - I can’t prove it, but I KNOW it’s the truth. It’s an extension, it goes past what knowledge can do.

Beyond what I can tell you lies so much more -- look deep within yourself and listen to your Inner Voice. Not the voice in your head, that is your logical, rational brain. Turn instead to your Soul for words of wisdom and Knowing.

With belief in our innate power we can survive all the tornadoes of the world. In the deepest, most inside part of us, what we KNOW will come to pass...

Andi

Andi BB, In a word, LOVE!!! Ceesun

Survivors -- OOPS. I FORGOT...

In my supplement list, I forgot to add:

Vitamin E 400 (2AM/1PM)
Selenium 200-- WHICH IN WITHIN THE RM-10 ULTRA IMMUNE BOOSTER I LISTED ABOVE IN PREVIOUS POST HERE
+ Echinacea w/astragalus 2x a day for a wk -- then Thymulus 2x a day for a wk -- then switch back to echinacea w/astrag. Supports the IMMUNE SYSTEM, which is so key! This alternating way -- ON 1 wk and OFF the next w/substitute -- helps you not build up a tolerance to the immune booster.

Ceesan -- LOVE right back at you my SWEET!

And to all...

I COULDN'T FIND THIS SURVIVORS THREAD NO MATTER HOW MUCH I LOOKED.

AT THIS POINT, TODAY, JANUARY 18, 2016, I DECIDED ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. I SPENT A GOOD HALF HOUR -- AND LOOK WHAT I FOUND...

MY PRAYER FOR SURVIVAL IS IN HERE.

MY OLD SUPPLEMENTS LIST IS IN HERE.

AND MY NEW SUPPLEMENTS LIST IS IN A WHOLE NEW THREAD --

2016 UPDATED SUPPLEMENT LIST must read

Tenacity and determination, resolve -- wins the day. Ask any Olympic champion... Stay -- STRONG, BRAVE and DETERMINED...

My onc at Rush University in Chicago says the day of diagnosis. My onc at Mayo that oversaw the clinical trial I participated in says the day treatment ended. Mayo admits they are conservative regarding this issue.