Resveratrol--interpret this article?

[VDC]

Howdy! I"ll admit this is a rather dense read, but I am looking for some other input regarding its reference to trans resveratrol and hormonal status of BC. If someone has the time, could they take a look and give their take on trans resveratrol in ER-, PR- BC? obviously from the study trans resveratrol would be contraindicated for hormone sensitive cancers, but what out the ER,PR negative ones? Thoughts anyone?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC28446/

[donocco]

VDC

Are you taking Reservatrol? Im assuming you are. Ill read the article at work in the pharmacy but you have to be carefull of what is done in a test tube ie in vitro. latin for in glass. Ill see if there are any in vivo ie living animal studies showing animals with cancer were made worse by taking Reservatrol. I would take this more seriously than in vitro studies.

Paul

[donocco]

I Have seen studies that show Reservatrol stimulating Breast cancer in mice.
Yet I have also seen studies showing the same Reservatrol inhibiting metastasis. Ill keep on searching. I really dont know what to say.
There is a bias in the "system" against what is called alternative medicine.
Even science isnt as objective as one might think. Right now it seems Reservatrol is good and bad at the same time.

Paul

[VDC]

Thanks! I appreciate the effort! Truly. ....I may have answered my own question though!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC28446/

"An estrogen receptor-negative cell line, MDA-MB-231, was used to confirm that estrogen receptor was required for resveratrol action"

And yes, I have been taking Trans Resveratrol (among other things). My last exam showed a decrease of 30% volume of cancer....and it was with "only" supplements. I have been trying to determine just which supplements might be responsible for the fantastic results.

My oncologist is less than enthusiastic with my choices. The clinical trial that I had applied to was awaiting IRB approval and it kept being delayed! I told my oncologist that I would NOT go forward with treatment until one of two things happened: either there was clear progression of disease, or MD Anderson was granted IRB approval. That was in January.

May 8th, I had additional imaging done to determine the degree of progression and discovered 30% regression. Most unexpected. Needless to say, I have been scouring the medical journals looking at all the supplements I added to my diet in early January. Trans Resveratrol is one of those.

My variety is ER-, PR-, HER2 +3 so the distinction between ER+, PR+ and ER-, PR- is important and sometimes difficult to ferret out of the research.

[VDC]

...and yes, I DO understand the bias of the system! I am an Organic/Biochemist, although I teach now.

We have been using Trans Reservatrol ever since I was able to lower my HoFH son's LDL cholesterol to 53 using Trans Res alongside traditional medicine. (HoFH stands for Homozygous Familial Hypercholesterolemia) Traditional medicine had lowered his LDL from 750 to 135....although it took SIX medications all taken at the same time to do it! We thought that was fantastic! But when I added Trans Resveratrol to his cocktail, the LDL dropped further to 53. His doctor was a skeptic and required that we withdraw the trans res., wait to see the LDL climb back to the 135 range, then introduce the trans res again to see if it was truly the trans res that was lowering the LDL. It was. (I think it competes for the same CYP pathway as Lomidapide)

That was when I became a believer in complimentary medicine. Not alternative, I still believe in traditional medicine. BUT I also believe there is a place for supplements as a complimentary treatment.

Now if I could just figure out which supplements I take that is shrinking this cancer of mine........... that is a little harder to determine since there isn't a marker like LDL cholesterol to check!

[donocco]

VDC
Its obvious you know your stuff. Another article I read showed Reservatrol decreases MMP-9 or Matrix Metalloproteinase=9/ These MMPs dissolve the intercellualar " cement"
and are important for cancer metastasis. Another article showed that Reservatrol inhibits the growth of stem cells.

Yes the Drs get skeptical and sometimes hostile. Im not going off my rocker if I were to say "if you could stop cancer progression with OTC supplements, there would be economic consequences. Im not saying you can.

I dont know if you are taking Pycnegenol but in one experiment they treated osteoarthritis with I think 100mg Pycnegenol a day. The C reactive Protein, the important marker of inflammation dropped from 3.9 (mg/Liter?) to 1.1/ Inflammation is very important in the initiation and progression of cancer. Cancer has been described as "a wound that wont heal" and this implies inflammation is an intricate part of the equasion

Paul

[VDC]

Quote:
"Another article I read showed Reservatrol decreases MMP-9 or Matrix Metalloproteinase=9/ These MMPs dissolve the intercellualar " cement"
and are important for cancer metastasis. Another article showed that Reservatrol inhibits the growth of stem cells."

Now that is something I did NOT know! I did a very quick search and discovered the following: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4058041/

Thanks for the info! Gives me something else to research and think about!

[VDC]

Quote: "I dont know if you are taking Pycnegenol but in one experiment they treated osteoarthritis with I think 100mg Pycnegenol a day. The C reactive Protein, the important marker of inflammation dropped from 3.9 (mg/Liter?) to 1.1/ Inflammation is very important in the initiation and progression of cancer. Cancer has been described as "a wound that wont heal" and this implies inflammation is an intricate part of the equasion"

I had never heard of Pycnegenol until you mentioned it! I've heard of the inflamation/cancer possible connection and personally believe it to be true. But I haven't been able to find any natural ways to reduce inflamation. This sounds intriguing to me and I will have to research it and perhaps add it to my "cocktail."

I HAVE inflammation. Chronic inflammation caused by a surgery seven years ago. I have been in and out of physical therapy, take a muscle relaxant etc all in attempts to reduce the chronic inflammation in my abdominal muscles. Even if I did not have cancer, I would be open to ways to reduce the inflammation (and corresponding pain) associated with these core muscles.

A HUGE thank you for this information. It may be very beneficial not only to my cancer, but to my chronic pain caused by chronic inflammation.

I wonder if there is a connection between chronic inflammation and the particular variety of cancer that develops? Perhaps ER-, PR-? Just wondering. I will have to do some research to see if there appears to be any connection......definitely food for thought!

[donocco]

VDC

Ill mention Berberine. This has antidiabetic and and anticancer action. There is a phenomenon called epithelial-to mesenchymal transition that is important in metastasis. I believe this is a change in cell shape that causes cancer cells to be more motile and able to metastasize. Berberine seems to inhibit this.

Look up Cimetidine brand name Tagamet. It is now (for years) an over the counter histamine 2 blocker antacid. Tagamet intereferes with the production of
E-Selectin, a protein that forms on the endothelial cells that line the small blood vessels. This protein attaches to c protein found on many cancer cells called I believe Lewis Sialyl antigen. When the cancer cells hook onto the E Selectin in te small blood vessels it aids metastasis. Cimetidine is only effective against those cancers that produce the sialyl antigen but if the cancer is metastatic one it is a good guess they are doing this. Cimetidine is a drug of relatively low toxicity although it can act as an enzyme inhibitor increasing the serum levels of certain drugs.

The effect of Cimetidine has been dramatic. They did one study with colon cancer patients. This was done decades ago. One half the patients were given 800mg Cimetidine daily I think starting before surgery and continued for one year. They looked at 10 year survival. It was something like 85% for the colon cancer group getting the Cimetidine daily and 49% for those just on sugery plus oral f flurouracil. The cimetidine patients also got the daily 5-FU so the survival was unlikely to be due to the Cimetidine alone. Im sure you will find this info on google or pub-med. This was colon cancer so you cant say this applies to other cancers. But the E Selectinvs Siallyl antigen thing seems to be general and not cancer specific. See what you find

Paul

PS Other Histamine 2 antagonists such as Zantac (Ranitidine) and the others dont seem to have this anti E Selectin effect. Common sense would say they would. Pharmacology isnt common sense many times.

[VDC]

Ah yes, Berberine! I've been taking Berberine for about 3 months.

Actually I'm on a smorgasbord of things!
IP (http://children.webmd.com/Incontinentia-Pigmenti-10906)-6, inositol hexaphosphate
Indole-3-Carbinol
Trans Resveratrol
Quercetin
Evening Primrose oil
Co Q 10
Cranberry extract
Grape Seed Extract
Curcumin
Flaxseed Lignan
Vit D
Flaxseed oil
Aspirin
Rosemary
Green tea extract
Dietary ground flaxseed (and I HATE the stuff)
Cinnamon
Berberine
Spirulina
pecans
Melatonin
Aloe Vera
Niacin



Levothyroxin
Atorvastatin
Cyclobenzaprine
Estrogen/Progesterone (yeah, I know........)


I can't begin to tell you the number of hours I have spent reading articles on these supplements in the medical journals...... but I'm used to it, I've been researching HoFH for over sixteen years!

My operating thought is: 1. is there any scientific indication that it MIGHT be beneficial? 2. Is there any scientific indication it could be harmful? 3. Are there any harmful interactions with supplements or medications that I'm already taking.

I am willing to accept that I may be spending money on useless supplements, but as long as they are not harmful, I find it acceptable. I am also willing to accept that much is not known about many of these supplements which means some of them could indeed be harmful. Which is why I often ask for complete metabolic panels to be run....just to catch any harmful side effects. (so far there have been none)

I now have reason to believe that something in my list of supplements is deleterious to cancer. After all, in the last three months the extent of my disease has shrunk by 30% with no other treatment other than these supplements. I will probably never know which supplement, or combination of supplements is in play here.

I will be very curious to see what the next few months bring!

[VDC]

Paul, You are obviously very knowledgeable. I"m curious, what is your background?

[VDC]

Here's an interesting aspect of Pycnegenol. Sounds like it might have pro-apoptotic effects for some cancers. Interesting study because it used the serum of people who took one dose of Pycnegenol to apply to cancer in a "test tube"

https://www.spandidos-publications.com/ijo/46/4/1629

[donocco]

VDC

Im a pharmacist. Im really (mentally) more of a pharmacologist but I got married after graduating USC Pharmacy School and started working at thriftys
My wife had a six year old boy from another marriage so I gave up getting a PHD in Pharmacology. So I started full time work as a pharmacist. I still work partime as a pharmacist.

In 1978 I started working as a pharmacist at Sloan Kettering Memorial. What I saw there was burned on my brain. I lasted a year then enlisted in the Public Health Service.

I developed a fear/fascination with cancer and kept reading up on the subject. When I saw so little progress in so many years I started to get interested in the alternative things like berberine, cimetidine, pycnegenol etc. Certainly I see the value of chemo and Herceptin. About 75% of childrens cancers are curable with chemo despite the rigors of the treatment.
Id be the first to tell a woman whose child is being treated to avoid alternative things because of the possibility of anti-oxidants (supposedly) interfering with chemo etc. With adult cancers, chemo seems far less effective and to me it is worth the risk to add on alternative methods. It really blows my mind to see so little progress in so many years with so much publicity and so much research and money involved.

Paul

[VDC]

Ahhhh....your responses make a lot of sense now! I am glad to be a recipient of your research, or curiosity, or fear? Keep the info coming my way! I'll take any suggestions or ideas and do some reading!

I'm a bit of an amateur sleuth when it comes to lipids and lipid metabolism. In fact, I chose bile acid sequesterants as my topic for graduate school. Of course I had one VERY good reason to study them.....our seven year old son with HoFH! (he is now 23 and no heart disease! ....and an LDL of 53 thanks to the interaction between Trans Resveratrol and Juxtapid)

Sloan/Kettering has a reasonable website for herbs/botanical etc. I use it as a starting place for finding research articles. From the articles listed as references, I branch out to the articles that reference them etc. I'm sure you are already familiar with it?

https://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/treatments/symptom-management/integrative-medicine/herbs

I also use the WebMD website as a starting place for research articles on particular substances and then move to those articles that reference those. WebMD is more thorough.

I took your advice and after doing a little research of my own, I ordered some pycnogenol. There isn't a lot of data out there related to cancer and not much research, but what I did find was fascinating and worth a whirl. And I'm also interested in the possibility of reducing the inflammation that I deal with on a daily basis. I've tried pretty much everything else!

Thanks for the suggestions, and please DO keep the suggestions or ideas coming!

[donocco]

VDC Excellent. I dont want to sound like a broken record but legally I have to advise you to discuss any supplement with your oncologist.

My wife and I are going on vacation for a week (anniversary) so I wont be on the board probably.

I stated that Ive seen very little progress since I worked at Sloan Kettering in 1978.
Of course there has been some but not much. The cancer paradigm is the same. Fear of suffering, fear for young children, lossing hair etc etc. Nothing has really changed much. We called adriamycin the red devil in 1978 as we made it up under the hood. Im sure the pharmacists and patients call it the same today. We used Cytoxan in 1978. Same today. Same with Methotrexate.

If you would, do some research on Interleukin 6 and its involvement in cancer. Please put a number of relevant abstracts on the board. You might find the research interesting. I want to show you (at least in my opinion) how the cancer situation is as much or more a matter of politics than science,

Paul
PS I think pycnegenol has been shown to decrease the action of interleukin 6. It does decrease C reactive protein. When interleukin 6 acts on liver cells, C reactive Protein, the main marker of inflammation is produced.

Paul

[VDC]

Paul,
No worries! You are off the hook legally. I DO tell my oncologist of everything I am taking. Ultimately it is my decision and while I do take information from all sources, ultimately it is my own research and my decisions to make. So far my oncologist has worked with me, although I think I DO try her patience at times! I require medical research as proof from her. The "status quo" or especially the hated word "protocol" is not in my vocabulary which frustrates her.

Even the radiation oncologist was frustrated by my way of looking at the research and developing my own opinion. When we discussed radiation after surgery I asked for the research indicating his quoted 50% decreased risk of recurrence with radiation. When I read the articles for myself, I discovered that radiation only decreased recurrence for about 10-12% of all women and made no difference for the other 88-90%. For 75-80% of women their cancer would not recur even if they did not receive radiation. For the other 20-25% 10-12% will recur even with radiation. So, radiation only helps 10-12% of women. Yet, 30% of women receiving radiation treatment would have life long side effects from it. I then asked if my analysis was correct. He didn't want to answer and ultimately said "I would prefer you didn't look at it that way. I would prefer you recognized a 50% reduction in recurrence." Again, the way things are said matter and are manipulative at times.

All of this to say that I do my own research and come to my own decisions. I appreciate your information because it gives me a new line of thought to research. But, I take responsibility for my own decisions. Any poor decisions are mine alone!

I will look into the Interleukin 6 and see what I find. I don't know much (okay anything) about it.

Thanks! ....and have a GREAT vacation!

[VDC]

Paul, Okay you asked for it! Here is my first article that seems to address prognostic ability! But first let me comment that some of these articles are rather old. Since this topic is new to me, I didn't mind reading the first studies done, but more recent research should have more accurate information!

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ijc.10833/pdf

The next study seems to show that IL-6 is higher in women with high grade cancers and are more likely to metastasize

http://www.nature.com/onc/journal/v28/n33/abs/onc2009180a.html

And, IL-6 is higher in women who have mets and the degree of mets correlates with higher IL-6 levels. Increased IL-6 levels indicates extent of disease

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ijc.10833/full

Ah, and IL-6 serum levels correlate to poor survival in patients with hormone-refractory metastatic breast cancer

http://www.nature.com/bjc/journal/v88/n11/full/6600956a.html

IL-6 may be produced by cancer cells and breast cancer cells that are sensitive to drug treatment do not express IL-6, whereas high levels of IL-6 are produced by multidrug-resistant breast cancer cells.

http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/61/24/8851.short


Also, IL-6 is inversely associated with KI-67 status and tumor grade (which seems to contradict early study on tumor grade)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2362311/


AND this one is just a great overview of all IL's and what is currently known!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4307328/

[SoCalGal]

Thanks for all of this great information, I've grown so weary of reading, reading and reading, mostly over my head/vocabulary/comprehension, so it requires reading plus deciphering and side learning to finish the reading. Meantime, it's 9 years of juggling supplements, trying to correlate results, and honestly, I'm so tired of all the pills. BUT, this thread has so much info, I'm gonna plow through and see what might apply to me.

VDC, what is your breast cancer history? Have you done any conventional treatment? If you don't mind sharing/creating a signature, I'm most curious to compare our lists, I'm also er/pr negative. Thanks a bunch donocco and vdc, you are inspiring me to dig in :)
-SoCalGal

[VDC]

So Cal Gal,
Honestly I have been very hesitant to share my story because it is so very simple and doesn't compare in any way or shape to most of the things all of you have gone through. I cannot begin to compare to your lives. Even, now when requested, I hesitate.

I was diagnosed in September 2016 with high grade (grade 3) , ER-, PR- DCIS. That was after a rather traumatic stereotactic biopsy where I developed a 3.5 inch by 1.5 inch by 1.5 inch hematoma....in about two hours. Quite painful to say the least.

Due to mishandling at my local facility I decided to travel to the Mayo clinic for a second opinion. A new biopsy revealed HER2 3+, KI-of 30%, and extent of disease about twice what my local facility had said 2.7 cm. or a little over an inch. There was a "rush" to go to surgery but I found a clinical trial that I really wanted to join. By early December I was found to be a good candidate for the study but with the holidays was told I should wait and fly there in early January. Over the Christmas vacation I started doing research of my own and decided to add supplements to my life. I added things like Melatonin and Curcumin as well as others that were currently in clinical trials to determine their efficacy. I figured if they had enough merit to be in clinical trials, then it couldn't hurt to add them to my life.

In January I was informed that the PI (principle investigator) of the study was moving his research team to Moffit and the trial would be on hold for as long as 18 months. That was simply too long for me to wait so I asked my Mayo oncologist for another evaluation to determine how much my disease had grown. Early February imaging revealed no change in extent of disease. My oncologist was stumped and just kept muttering that high grade SHOULD have progressed.

I found the experience encouraging and since there was no other explanation decided that the supplements must be helping to make this cancer unhappy. I then applied to another clinical trial that was due to start March 1st. (this was early February) ...and while I waited I did more research and branched out with supplements that were not currently in clinical trials. When the clinical trial had not gained IRB approval as of April, I asked my oncologist for more imaging. Results of the imaging on May 8th, showed 30% decrease by volume or 20-25% in each of two dimensions.

My continued decision to wait for the clinical trial caused my oncologist great consternation and frustration. She would have liked me in surgery the next day! But I decided given the regression in disease, I would wait until either the trial was given IRB approval OR my imaging showed progression of disease.

The trial was granted IRB approval this week. But,....now I'm wondering if I want to wait until July to see what new imaging shows. If this disease has shrunk, what could happen in two more months? Obviously I"m doing something right?

Now, as for the research that I do. Yes, you are correct that it takes a LOT of time and I have had to learn a new vocabulary to do it. But it can be done. In our cases we need to look at not only what the research says but also if it is in vitro (in the petri dish), in vivo (in the body), or ex vivo (blood or other fluids taken from the body after a treatment and then applied to a petri dish sample). Of course the in vivo carries more weight than the other two. The other factor that has been much harder to ferret out, has been the effect of any given supplement on ER, PR positive cancer versus ER,PR negative cancer. Sometimes it is near impossible to find any reference to it. In the in vitro and ex vivo cases you can look at what cell lines are used. Those cell lines each have their own hormone, and HER 2 status. Once you know which ones are which, it becomes easier to tell how a given supplement MIGHT affect our "brand" of cancer.

And in some cases, there are mixed research that contradicts each other. That appears to be the case with Trans Resveratrol although most of the PRO cancer aspects appear to be associated with hormone positive cancer. Very few appear to be associated with hormone receptor negative cancers, although there are some.

Since my last appointment on May 8th, I have continued to research and add to my repertoire of supplements. With each addition I do wonder if I am making the correct choice on that particular supplement. The human body is SO complex that it is impossible to predict every reaction. But I am willing to take those risks.

Anyway, sorry for the rather long winded response. If you have any questions about any particular supplement that I take, feel free to ask. Each one was researched extensively! I can probably point you in the direction of the research that caught my attention!

[SoCalGal]

VDC, Just wanted to jump online and say thanks for the open, honest response and for sharing so much valuable info. Really appreciate that!! I've re-read back thru some of your older threads. Couple of things to consider, historically, HER2 is an aggressive cancer, with Herceptin available, plus the surgery, odds are strongly in your favor of beating the DCIS and never having to deal with cancer again. The supplements that are helping clearly have impact. Keep in mind that vitamin c in mega dose infusions will also arrest cancer but its effect wears off in just a few weeks. Not to undermine your supplements list, just as someone who has had cancer for too many years, better to be safe than sorry and not suffer regret. Hope that you throw every available tool at this crap disease, so it is truly out of your life. I have taken a lot of supplements consistently for the last 8 years, and given up wheat and dairy in my attempt to further reduce inflammation and balance omegas. The last year I've fallen off the supplements wagon - they just go on my last nerve! You are inspiring me to begin again, at least with the very basics, vit D, the oils, ubiquinol since I'm on Herceptin, and several others, I'm too tired to look at the cabinet right now :) Let's keep communicating!!
-SCG

[VDC]

So Cal Gal,
I completely agree! And I don't think I would be hesitating except for the little piece of my life that I didn't share. My father is undergoing heart ablation surgery the 6th of June to be followed by 2-3 weeks of not lifting more than 10 pounds. He won't be able to live alone until he can lift more than 10 pounds. Right now, I am the one scheduled to stay with him through those 2-3 weeks in June. That is the second reason why I would really like to wait until early July for the trial treatment. I treasure my time with my dad. Our times together are limited given his health and age.

At the same time, I don't want to be stupid! If I'm honest I will tell you I am wrestling with it right now! My husband and I had a long chat last night and are leaning toward starting the trial treatment the beginning of July, but we will be discussing it further to be sure! In the meantime I am filling out paperwork and getting registered etc. There is no end to paperwork is there?

Oh, and the OTHER thing causing me to pause just a bit is that our son is also trying to enter a clinical study. His is a phase 1 trial....one of those "never tried in humans" trials. It has been a difficult decision deciding if he should try to qualify for it or not. But tomorrow he makes the phone call asking to be screened. I"m not entirely sure what that will entail. I would like to be available to help him during this initial phase.

Despite all these issues going on in my life, I completely agree with everything you have said! No arguments here! And I appreciate your thoughtful and honest response! REALLY I do! Please do keep the thoughts coming. I take suggestions seriously.

Thank you!

[VDC]

SoCalGal,
I take the idea of complementary medicine! (not alternative). I DO think there is much that isn't known about what we call supplements...both for good and for bad. I would truly like to see more research in it, but there just isn't any money in supplement research! What drug company wants to sponsor research that wouldn't bring in any funds? That is part of why I have been doing supplement research on my own for quite some time. Not in isolation, but in concert with traditional medicine. Of course prior to this cancer diagnosis it was with my son who has Homozygous Familial Hypercholesterolemia. Against medical advice I started tinkering with his supplements and medications (always with his physicians knowledge) and we were able to lower by 50% his LDL beyond what traditional medicine was able to accomplish.

Do I think supplements can cure cancer? NO! A resounding no. I am NOT trying to cure my cancer with supplements. However, I would like to slow it down a bit! As I told my family when I began supplement research, "I would like to make this cancer as unhappy as possible by every means possible!"

I am scheduled to start an immunotherapy trial in early July. I was supposed to start in June but my dad is having heart ablation and I am his caregiver. So, July it is.

Thank you for caring! Your response was obviously out of care and concern.

[scrunchthecat]

Thanks for the most informative post, VCD. SoCalGal- I have a question for you: your profile states that you developed a herceptin allergy, but then went on premeds and things got better? I have been taking H&p for a a year now, including 6 rounds of thp in the beginning. I never really had any problems. In January I stopped premeds, and by March I developed instances of severe itching on my shoulders and my left forearm (but not my right forearm - the side I had bc on and now treat for mild lymphadema.) my question: what was the nature of your herceptin allergy - did it occur during infusion only? - and have the premeds cleared this up?? Thanks for your help.

[donocco]

My wife just got back from the Mississippi river cruise. We went downriver from Memphis to New Orleans. At the end of the cruise one of the directors thanked us for contributing to 160 American jobs. Im glad we did.

This was a while back but VDC put that Interleukin-6 info on the board. Thanks. Interleukin 6 is very important in the progression of cancer. One of the reasons if not the main reason so many cancers metastasize to the bone is the facgt thagt the bone stroma is rich in IL-6 producing cells.

The sad thing is we have two FDA approved anti-interleukin 6 approved drugs- Actrema and Sylvan. Actemrama is FDA approved for Rheumatoid Arthritis and Siltuximab (Sylvan) for Castlemans syndrome an aids syndrome. These drug might (I say might) have valuue in treating cancer. Insurance only pays for the FDa approved use and doctors arent free to use them because of the fact they are controllerd by the insurance companies. This has to change

Paul

[donocco]

Sorry for the mispellings. Exhausted by the long trip home

Paul

[SoCalGal]

@scruchthecat...after years of herceptin, during an infusion, suddenly, about 5 minutes into drip, I had rapid heartbeat, pressure in chest, rapid pulse and felt like I couldn't breathe and was going to black out. I hit the stop button. They all came running. As soon as drip was stopped all symptoms began to subside. 1 mg Ativan and 20 min later, we slowed the rate waaaaay down but I couldn't restart the drip. Infusion aborted. Saw my onc who sent me to a random allergist. He prescribed prednisone starting the day before (20 mg at 4pm. 20 mg at midnight). Two 150 mg Zantac day before at 4 and morning of. One singulair day before and morning of. Also two benedryl morning of treatment. That 50 mg knocks me into loopy. BUT I've been able to resume herceptin theses last several years. It's an ordeal! My allergy was an extreme and near immediate reaction. Not sure the many ways an allergy presents. Hope this helps.

[VDC]

Donnoco,
Sounds like you had a splended vacation! Glad to hear it!

I intend to do some more research on this, but have you discovered any "interesting" supplements that MIGHT help in reducing interleukin?

I've been swamped with other research and really haven't given this question much time. Just wondering if you might have any interesting places for me to start my research!

[donocco]

VDC

I read your post and did some quick research just to give you some leads/


Omega 3 fatty acids reduce IL6 particularly the docoshexanoic acid

DHEA lowers interleukin 6. DHEA is a proandrogen so I dont know its effect on breast or prostate cancer. In one study where elderly men were given 50mg DHEA daily for an extended period, there was no rise in the PSA or prostate specific antigen.

The drug Pentoxyphylline or Trental is effective in lowering Tumor Necrosis factor alpha and Interleukin 6 but is a prescription drug.

If Pyncnegenol reduces C reactive protein it logically will lower Interleuki 6. Ill do some quick research on that now

Paul

[donocco]

VDC

Yes Pycnegenol lowers interleukin 6 but these were test tube cell cultures. The lowering of C reactive Protein by Pycnegenol from 3.9 to 1.1 was an in vivo study done on osteoarthritis patients.

Pycnegenol also lowers Matrix Metalloproteinase-9 levels. This MMP9 is involved in metastasis as the protein matrix between cells is dissolved allowing cancer cells to penetrate the tissues.

Coenzyme Q10 seems to lower Interleukin 6 levels and Matrix Metalloprotein levels (not 100% sure about the MMP-9). This caught my attention. This was a Danish study way back where metastatic breast cancer patients with liver mets were given 390 mg Coenzyme Q10 daily and in a few patients the mets disappeared. Maybe you can find that study and put it on the board.

Paul

Happy researching

[VDC]

I am very familiar with the CoQ10 studies! The studies are of poor design and it is impossible to know what confounding factors might be in play in these reports. Still, it was interesting enough to me, for me to add CoQ10 to my repertoire of supplements several months ago. It was especially interesting because some of these women had liver mets and they disappeared on higher doses of CoQ10. I found it something to consider because I take a statin for high cholesterol and statins are known to reduce natural CoQ10 levels. The latest research even indicates that statins may slightly increase the chances of breast cancer.....hm, that would be me.

These are probably the studies you are talking about! They were the ones that caused me to add CoQ10 to my diet!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7612003

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7752835

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7908519

Of particular interest was the third one
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7908519

[VDC]

I'll see if I can find the osteoarthritis study. I look to these studies to determine what dosage might be appropriate. The in vitro studies are interesting and may or may not hold true in vivo, but regardless, in vitro studies give no indication what dosage might be effective in vivo. Even if applied to osteoarthritis, it still gives some indication what dosage has been used safely in human subjects.

edit: Found 'em!

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2008/12/10/44001.aspx

The article above is for the lay person while the article below is the original article

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19017467

This study suggests 100 mg daily for osteoarthritis. When I looked at Pycnogenol to purchase, it wasn't quite as clear. Most Pycnogenol is labeled as such, BUT when you look at the labels they are labeled as "Pine Bark Extract" standardized to 70% procyanidins. Makes me wonder how much of those procyanidins are actually pycnogenol! There doesn't appear to be a way to determine the exact amount of pycnogenol in each supplement. I went with a supplement called "Pine Bark Extract" rather than one labeled "Pycnogenol" because it actually had a GREATER percentage of procyanidins! Go figure!

[VDC]

Here's an interesting study

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3063649/

which showed that Andrographolide, an herbal medicine, inhibits Interleukin-6 expression and suppresses prostate cancer cell growth.

Now prostate cancer isn't breast cancer, BUT........
it is interesting! I have no idea what Andographolide is but I will research it and see what I find out.

Wow! Look at this one! http://www.pnas.org/content/105/38/14692.full
This shows that EGCG, epigallocatechin-3-gallate (EGCG) inhibits IL-6 synthesis. I find this particularly interesting because I have been on EGCG (green tea extract) for about 3-4 months. Fascinating!

[donocco]

VDC

You got the articles. The I think Danish study where the patients with mets became clear of them. The dose of Q10 apparently is very important. Someone taking Q10 for mets probably should take about 400mgs per day. Serum level may be important like with seizure meds. I didnt realize that the results had been duplicated in other studies. That is encouraging. I thought one of the pts in the Danish study had pleural mets but I wasnt sure. I read it years ago.

As far as I know there is no single chemical pycnogenol. Its the mixture of chemicals you mentioned. It comes from a bark of a pine tree that grows in Gascony, a province of southwest france. Ill doublecheck tommorrow. I buy it from Amazon. Yes the osteoarthritis study was the exact one where a pycnogenol dose of 100mg daily dropped the C reactive protein from 3.9 to 1.1.
Inflammation is a relatively general term. It seems to be effective

Im really interested in the last plant you mentioned. I never heard of that one but it sounds interesting. Ill print out the article at work Thursday.

One thing Id like to study is the mechanism of action of these IL6 blockers.
If they have different mechanisms of action they could be combined. Thats
how you treat high blood pressure. Start with Hydrochlorothiaze. If that isnt sufficient add a Calcium Channel blocker (Norvasc). If you still have to drop the blood pressure lower add a Beta blocker (Atenelol) etc. Each blood pressure drug has a different mechanism of action.

This interleukin 6 vs herb lowering is something to research. Keep me busy.

Thanks for your efforts

Paul

[donocco]

This is a blanket statement - Discuss these supplements with your Oncologist.

Paul

[VDC]

Donnoco,
Oh yes, you've covered your bases! No worries. I keep my oncologist "informed" but ultimately I take responsibility for my own choices!

[VDC]

Donnoco,
If you do find that these supplements decrease inflammation by different mechanisms, please do share! It would be an interesting thing to know!

[VDC]

I was doing a little snooping around looking for other anti-inflammatory herbs and ran across this article:

http://www.naturalmedicinejournal.com/journal/2011-09/turmeric-and-frankincense-inflammation-update

I found it interesting because it was a revisit of curcumin which apparently has anti inflammatory properties, BUT the article also mentioned the curcumin-PC-phytosome which I had previously read about. The Curcumin-PC-phytosome increases the bio availability of curcumin 18 fold! On a whim, I googled "curcumin-PC-phytosome" and discovered that the stuff is commercially available from many "health stores." Now THAT is news. Here we have a curcumin that is FAR more bio available than standard curcumin? ...and it is readily available? I"m going to have to do some more reading, but my mind is sufficiently piqued.

[donocco]

VDC

That is interesting. The problem with Curcumin is the poor absorbtion.

Ill share one idea that has been in my mind for awhile. There is something called the copper/zinc ratio. You measure the serum copper in microgram % by the serum zinc in microgram% and get a ratio. A level of both copper and zinc of 90microgram % would be a common level for both zinc and copper.

Say you draw blood from a healthy 20 year old woman. The copper/Zinc ratio might be 0.85 meaning the serum zinc is higher than the serum copper. If the zinc level were 100mcg% (a normal value) and the serum copper were 85mcg% the copper/zinc would be 0.85.

In cancer you run into cu/zn ratios of 1.5, 1.8. 2.2. As the cancer gets more progressive the copper/zinc ratio rises. If you had 100 women with breast lumps and drew blood on all of them you could pretty well diagnose the cases that are malignant by calculating the copper/zinc ratio. Interestingly women with benign breast lumps have a cu/zn ratio in between cancerous and no lump women. One hundred women with no breast lumps might have a copper/zinc ratio of 0.9. Those women with fibrocystic lumps might have a ratio of 1.1 while those with breast cancer might have a copper/zinc ratio of 1.5 and higher. I realize cancer is now diagnosed before the lump stage now but the death rate hasnt dropped. That is a whole different story.

This abnormally high copper/zinc ratio holds true for every cancer. Melanoma might be an exception. Not sure. Perhaps you could put a few articles on the board.

I have often asked myself "What if you artificially raised the zinc blood level by taking oral zinc supplements. What if you took a dose daily of zinc sufficient enough to
lower the the copper/zinc ratio to a normal level of say 0.9. This might have a beneficial effect on the course of the cancer. It might not. I doubt it would cause much toxicity.Of course I cant be sure. I think its worth a try. I wouldnt expect this bjt it wouldnt shock me if this produced a very beneficial effect. Stranger things have happened. In this case you have to work with a willing physician as only an MD can order the necessary blood tests to measure the zinc copper levels and calculate a copper/zinc ratio. It makes sense to correct an abnormality virtually always seen with cancer. Just like each bacterium needs certain nutrients to thrive maybe cancer depends on this high copper/zinc ratio/ Please forgive any mispellings

Paul

PS cancer has been treated with copper reduction with some success but changing the copper/zinc ratio to a normal level seems easy and may be worth trying.

[VDC]

Paul,
Someone else on this board once posted about the copper zinc ratio. They had a progressive doctor who had done both copper and zinc testing. She was now on zinc supplements. I'll have to see if I can find the posting....although I don't think the thread had a name that indicated this discussion. I may not be able to find it.

[VDC]

Now that I'm thinking about it, I think I would want more information how the copper zinc is being metabolized by both the body and the cancer. For example if the zinc is being consumed by the cancer (and thus increasing the copper zinc ratio) then adding zinc to the body could just encourage the cancer by providing MORE of the substance that the cancer is using to thrive.

Just a thought. I"ll have to see what I can find.

[donocco]

VDC

See what you can find. As far as I know the problem lies more with the copper. When a cancerous tumor grows past a certain size (imillion cells?)
It has to form its own blood vessels to survive. This is called angiogenesis.
A number of proteins are involved in angiogenesis (Vascular Endothelial Growth Factor being a main one) and most of these pro-angiogenesis proteins use copper as a cofactor. A Dr Linda Vadhat is treating triple negative breast cancer with copper reduction with some interesting results. Of course I cant say that zinc cant spur cancer growth.

Paul

[VDC]

Hmmm.... This article seems to indicate it may be a ZINC issue and too much zinc favors cancer.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1985767

Also blocking zinc transporters may be beneficial in aggressive forms of breast cancer

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/02/120206102954.htm

Yep, we do NOT want zinc transported!

http://stke.sciencemag.org/content/5/210/ra11

and inhibiting the CK2 seems effective for other cancers

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26919095
http://www.nature.com/cddis/journal/v4/n3/full/cddis201363a.html

CK2 expression is 10 fold higher in breast cancer

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3726451/

I"m on a roll now! Found this little gem as a way to inhibit CK2 (CK2 upregulates transfer of Zn) Coumestrol inhibits CK2 But it also acts as a phytoestrogen, natural compounds that mimic the biological activity of estrogens

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23845105

and it appears red clover is highest in Coumestrol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coumestrol

Now I am more than intrigued!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3726451/

"A specific dietary supplement, selected vegetables (SV), which contains coumestrol, was studied in tumor-bearing mice and in stage IIIB and IV non-small cell lung cancer patients [37 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3726451/#B37)]. The study found 53-74% inhibition of tumor growth in mice, but more strikingly, patients in stage IIIB and IV NSCLC who took SV daily for 2–46 months had prolonged survival and attenuation of the normal pattern of progression compared to patients not taking SV [38 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3726451/#B38)]."

In case you are wondering the SV in the above quote was the following: 63 mg of inositol hexaphosphate, 4.4 mg of daidzein, 2.6 mg of genistein, and 16 mg of coumestrol

WOW, get a load of this pilot study!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11588907/

[donocco]

VDC

I see your point. I still keep thinking of the highCu/Zn ratio but I may be oversimplifying it. I guess for the time its best not to take a chance with zinc supplementation. Ill do some research over the weekend. I know lowering the copper level to 20% of normal can be beneficial in cancer. Read the wok of Dr. George Brewer.
His idea was to lower copper levels quickly with a copper chelator called Ammonium Tetrathimolybdate 20mg 5 times a day.

Once the copper levels were lowered he planned to keep them down with Zinc 50mg 3 times a day. When you take 50mg Zinc 3 times daily a copper chelating protein called Metalothionine is formed and this prevents dietary copper from being absorbed.

Paul

[VDC]

Fascinating! Here is the study you might be referring to?

http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/6/1/1.full

Most interesting.

If I had to guess, I would say there are several factors in play here.

edit: This phase two study wasn't quite a positive, but still statistically relevant
http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/9/5/1666.full

[donocco]

VDC

Yes that is the original study. That is what Im pushing for. The alteration of the copper zinc ratio to me was a start. It tends to be high in most cancers. I see copper as the "bad guy in copper. As zinc intake lowers serum copper I gtend perhaps naively to see zinc as the good guy. Ill research the effect of zinc supplementation in cancer over the weekend. I expect the usual. Some studies will show zinc as beneficial. others as having no real effect and others showing zinc to be harmful. As far as copper goes there is little ambivalence. Lowerin it drastically seems to be beneficial. Look at the work of Linda Vadhat using copper lowering as a treatment for triple negative breast cancer.

Paul

[VDC]

I haven't had a chance to do the research. Being with my dad for his ablation and then flying home has consumed pretty much all my time!

And I"m flying back to Mayo tomorrow for FIVE biopsies ....as a result of that "unnecessary" MRI I demanded. I don't think I will have much time for the next week or so! But when I return home, I will try to give research a whirl and see what I come up with!

But.......I simply am not willing to give up my chocolate! ;-) I read chocolate is high in copper.....but come on, a girl has to be allowed ONE vise?

[donocco]

VDC

I have to be honest with you. The copper reduction demands lowering the serum copper by 80%. You even have to watch the water you drink. Yes cocoa is rich in copper. Dr Brewer used a copper chelator called Ammonium Tetrathiomolybdate. His original plan was to quickly reduce the copper over say a six month period with the Ammonium Tetrathiomolybdate then keep it down with oral zinc salt 50mg elemental zinc three times a day. The zinc causes the intestinal columnar cells to produce a protein called Metallothionein and this protein prevents copper from the diet from being absorbed by the intestine. If you go this route chocolate is no problem as the copper wont be absorbed.

The tetramolybdate salt is not FDA approved. They wanted it approved for the treatment of Wilsons disease, a hereditary disease of copper metabolism. Excess copper is deposited in the liver and brain tissues causing liver damage and Parkinson symptoms. Left untreated it is fatal.

Right now they have pharmacies making these Ammonium Tetrathiomolybdate capsules costing about 6 dollars each. If the drug is FDA approved and made by a say Pfizer it will cost 2000 dollars a capsule considering the potential value of the drug in cancer. I'm not trusting of the FDA. As far as I'm concerned their main purpose is keeping their jobs not "guarding the American Health." This was not a problem when medicine was private. Now that it is insurance conrtolled its a problem. The FDA is controlled by Congress and Congress is controlled by lobbys. We have two opposing lobbys ie drug co and insurance companies and the congressmen want the lobby money from both. Once again the FDA appeases them by approving a drug (drug company happy they can charged what the want) and limiting the drugs use in the FDA approval (this gives the insurance company an out as any use outside FDA approval is called experimental.

A perfect example is the drug Movantik to prevent constipation induced by those taking opiate drugs as cancer patients often have to. One problem-the FDA has approved Movantik for non cancer related opiate induced constipation. In other words the insurance companies wont pay for it if the opiate user is a cancer pt. Look this up. I don't want you to take my word for it. I think this is deliberate but I cant prove it. If I could there is little I could do about it. I'm sorry the FDA has become so politicized but that is the way it seems to be.

Sorry for the speech. I only want to point out that anyone using ammonium Tetrathiomolybdate for copper reduction had better start as soon as possible. Once the idea catches on it will be quickly FDA approved and only for Wilsons disease. Of course speak with your doctor if interested. You need an MDs order to do the blood tests that measure the Ceruloplasmin level. Ceruloplasmin is a copper carrying protein. Also with Ammonium Tetrathiomolybdate copper reduction you have to check for anemia and neutropenia, indications the copper level has dropped too low. Please forgive any misspellings.

Paul

[VDC]

Not a chance my oncologist would be agreeable. She is a "Protocol" gal through and through. ANYTHING outside of standard protocol is a struggle to have her approve....even the MRI was difficult to have her agree to! It took some serious research and sending her the research links to have her consent even to the MRI! Not a chance on earth she would agree to any copper tinkering. While interesting and certainly something I will follow, it is NOT in my future as long as I have this oncologist as my doctor.

I will continue to research it though as it does sound interesting!

On another note, I have been almost pain free (abdominal muscles that are inflamed from a surgery seven years ago) for about a week! This is a new thing for me. I'm not sure I have had this many nearly pain free days in seven years! I'm wondering if it is the pine extract. Only time will tell. Could be coincidence. But.....time will tell.

[VDC]

Ever heard of this?
Scutellaria barbata



Been looking at research and ran across this little herb. There were phase 1 and 1B studies done in human metastatic breast cancer with some limited results. Just curious if anyone has looked further into it?


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17111207?ordinalpos=12&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

and phase 1B
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20054647

[donocco]

VDC

Ive heard of it. The common name is skullcap or scullcap. They used to use it for nervous diseases like hysteria or epilepsy anxiety etc. Ill see what I can find about cancer

Paul

[VDC]

Yes, that is the stuff! Here is the link to the phase 1 study.

http://www.bzl101.com/Bionovo_Breast_Cancer_Research_Treatment.pdf

I have been unable to find the phase 1B study or any additional information! ...and I'm usually pretty good at finding what I want to find! But this one, has me stumped.

[VDC]

This is by FAR the best article I have EVER found on supplements and cancer. The file at the bottom (mmm3) is outstanding!

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1044579X15000887

I also went through and researched what each of the supplements in the mm3 file truly are and in my own file made note of where to find each of these in natural sources such as foods or common supplements. Unfortunately I don't know how to attach a file or I would do so!

Truly an outstanding review of the literature! Download the mmc3 file for reference.

What is missing are dosages of these to be effective......