black cohosh

[mimiflower07]

I realize this conversation has been shared in the pass.
I really was hoping just to pick a few brain cells. I have been researching, as of 2009 Bio Medicine released an article that found this herb to actually have antiestrogen, antiproliferative and antioxidant properties. There were other articles that showed no relative increase in breast recurrance.

Has any one out there...found new info to share. I 've started using this product called remifemin and so noticed a change. Most noticeable that I feel less like an agitated mother who might lose it over a simple baseball game(and i'm not even into sports!!). I can give you a few more visual...but i think you get it. Menopause with young children is like an experiment gone wrong.lol..

but my onc does not want me on antidepressants for mp symptoms.
Sorry, I'm rambling now...I feel so much better on this herb.I just don't want to fire up any new cells.

thanks for listening..but could some one respond. Lost inout here in meno land.

Suzanne

[Andrea Barnett Budin]

Dear Suzanne,

I totally relate to you on so many levels. I spent decades hot flashing into a simpering whimpering heap, feeling trapped in my skin and different from everyone else. They would be in turtlenecks AND jackets, clutching their arms around themselves to warm up. I'd be in a sleeveless thing melting, feeling clammy everywhere, dripping down my upper body, head and neck soaked and red-faced.

I tried black cohosh. It helped but not enough. For me EVENING PRIMROSE OIL is wondrous. I take 1300 every morning. I take 500 as a booster if need be, which rarely occurs.

I AM ER/PR NEGATIVE. I don't know if this is okay for you and your status.

I also read 2 entire books (John Lee, MD and a top guy in Australia) who believe it is all about unopposed estrogen that we are generating. So for a yr I used an ALL NATURAL Progestone Cream. If the product has YAM -- it is NOT natural. To be avoided at all cost.

I would never take synthetic progesterone, which my onc offered me on a limited 3 mnth basis. One of the top 100 docs in the country, but they do not know about this issue. Not a single onc, and I have been to half a doz over the yrs, not a GYN, also have asked many. They don't grasp the intensity and severity of the problem, minimizing it as an uncomfortable feeling that will pass. For some women, this is the case. Then for a small percentage of women http://cdn-cf.aol.com/se/clip_art/gstres/badday/flaminghead-runnerIT IS A LIVING HELL!!!

There are holistic GYNs that can concoct progesterone cream specifically for you. Also drug store chemists can do this. NO YAM. All natural. Nothing synthetic! You put a tiny amnt on the inside of arm once a day. It was magical.

When I took large dosages of black cohosh I had my hormones checked w/bld tests and my estradiol went way up. So I stay clear of that.

Thems my thoughts. I wish you PEACE... Smiles... And love...

[Bill]

Hi Suzanne! It's good to see your smiling faces again. Oddly enough, I was reading about black cohosh and evening primrose oil yesterday in the book, "You: Staying Young" by Michael F. Roizen, M.D. and Mehmet C. Oz, M.D. (yeah, Oprah's guy). They recommend trying these for menopausal symptoms. Also, for what it's worth, in their words, "You remember the first time you suffered hot flashes. Now remember what started the symtoms? That is one of your triggers. Common culprits include stress, red wine, chocolate, coffee, and hot rooms (although it's hard to tell after the flash has started)" They also recommend yoga as a stress relieving tool. Suzanne, last week I was watching a news clip that showed a Manitobian baseball Mom beating the living crap out of three rugged-looking coaches from another town. All you could see through the dust cloud at center-field was a bunch of elbows and once in awhile a green bandana. When the dust settled, three men lay on the ground, the Mom standing over them, "Like I said, he was SAFE, Right?!" mumbling from the ground, "yes, ma'am, he was safe, yes, ma'am"

[Laurel]

I do not take Black Cohosh because I am triple positive and it is suggested that it can raise estrogen levels. I do take evening primrose 1300mg daily as it is has been shown to increase the effectiveness of Herceptin and to prevent Herceptin resistance. When I discontinue the Herceptin I am going to have to do some research regarding the Primrose, but for now I will continue it. I have hotflashes throughout the day and night, but not as bad as some women. I loved Andi's mention of turtlenecks. I was always cold before B.C. Last year I lived in my multitude of turtlenecks and wool sweaters. Boy, not this year! I just cannot stand turtlenecks or heavy sweaters! Right now I am thanking God for whomever invented air conditioning!

[Andrea Barnett Budin]

There should be a national holiday honoring the person who invented a/c. I'm just saying...

For about 10 yrs I carried a fan (about 6 x 8) from Sharper Image, in a plasticized (very chic) shopping bag. I took it to weddings, wherever. My daughters were appalled. Others came and leaned over to get a blast of air and asked where they could find such a thing. Especially waitpersons -- very hot job.

For me sitting, even in front of an a/c unit, was of meager comfort.

Ativan at night helps me sleep AND -- keeps me free of any night sweats! Anxiety relievers are a blessing. We all need help sometimes.

[R.B.]

mimiflower07

There are a few trials that suggest Omega 3s may help with hot flushes.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&q=DHA%20hot%20flushes&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=ws

They have also been shown in trails to help with mood, depression etc.

Women have smaller brains which are more neuron dense and have more sophisticated connections than men. Neurons need Omega 3 DHA to function. Women's brain have a special need for them. Premenopause oestrogen allows women to make much more DHA than men from the plant based fat providing they have it in their diet. So it makes sense to supplement with DHA through fish oil or oily wild fish.

Omega 3s also help reduce the risk of BC

You may find this thread helpful if you have not seen it.

http://her2support.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=24410&highlight=greek+diet



http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0378512204003627


To investigate the effect on hot flushes of a soy isoflavone extract alone (Study A) and with the addition of a supplement of polyunsaturated fatty acids, PUFAs (Study B).
Methods:

Subjects were postmenopausal women (29 in Study A, 28 in Study B) with more than five troublesome hot flushes per day. Both studies were double-blind randomized placebo-controlled trials with cross-over design, of 24-week duration. After a 2-week observation period, they were randomized to receive two capsules per day providing 60mg of isoflavones or placebo for 12 weeks; thereafter, women who had taken isoflavones were given placebo for a second 12-week period, and vice-versa. Women in the Study B were given also two capsules per day containing a PUFA supplement for the entire 24-week test period.
Results:

Both studies showed the isoflavone extract to have no greater efficacy on hot flushes than the placebo. During the 24 weeks of the Study B there was a progressive and highly significant reduction in the number of hot flushes, independent of whether the women had begun with isoflavones or with placebo.
Conclusion:

In these two trials the isoflavone extract did not show greater efficacy on the hot flushes than the placebo. The reduction of hot flushes observed in the Study B might be due to the PUFA supplement. PUFAs, particularly Omega (Ω) 3-fatty acids, could reduce hot flushes through their influence on neuronal membranes and/or the modulation of the neurotransmitter function and the serotoninergic system. Studies specifically designed to document the action of PUFAs on hot flushes would be welcome.

[Laurel]

Just a question: how long do these hot flashes last? I know I will be experiencing them while on my 5 yrs of hormone therapy with Tamoxifen and later A.I.'s, but, really, will it continue after that? It's hot and sticky here tonight. The thought of never ending menopause coupled with the atmosphere is driving me to the fridge for a beer!

[Rich66]

"I do take evening primrose 1300mg daily as it is has been shown to increase the effectiveness of Herceptin and to prevent Herceptin resistance."

do you have a link to that study info? Is this accepted by oncs?

Ah..
here's something from '05:
Effect of gamma-linolenic acid on the transcriptional activity of the Her-2/neu (erbB-2) oncogene.

Menendez JA (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Menendez%20JA%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Vellon L (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Vellon%20L%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Colomer R (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Colomer%20R%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Lupu R (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Lupu%20R%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus).
Department of Medicine, Evanston Northwestern Healthcare Research Institute, Evanston, IL 60201, USA. jmenendez@enh.org
The omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acid gamma-linolenic acid (GLA; 18:3n-6), which is found in several plant oils and is used as an herbal medicine, has antitumor activity in vitro. We examined the effect of GLA on the expression of the Her-2/neu (erbB-2) oncogene, which is involved in development of numerous types of human cancer. Flow cytometric and immunoblotting analyses demonstrated that GLA treatment substantially reduced Her-2/neu protein levels in the Her-2/neu-overexpressing cell lines BT-474, SK-Br3, and MDA-MB-453 (breast cancer), SK-OV3 (ovarian cancer), and NCI-N87 (gastrointestinal tumor derived). GLA exposure led to a dramatic decrease in Her-2/neu promoter activity and a concomitant increase in the levels of polyomavirus enhancer activator 3 (PEA3), a transcriptional repressor of Her-2/neu, in these cell lines. In transient transfection experiments, a Her-2/neu promoter bearing a PEA3 site-mutated sequence was not subject to negative regulation by GLA in Her-2/neu-overexpressing cell lines. Concurrent treatments of Her-2/neu-overexpressing cancer cells with GLA and the anti-Her-2/neu antibody trastuzumab led to synergistic increases in apoptosis and reduced growth and colony formation.
PMID: 16264182 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

[Soccermom]

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Endocrinology/Menopause/4727

Black Cohosh Linked to Autoimmune Hepatitis

Charlene Laino
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Oct. 16, 2003 (Baltimore) — Physicians reported this week the first case of autoimmune hepatitis likely induced by the use of black cohosh, an herbal remedy gaining popularity as an alternative to hormone replacement therapy (HRT) in the post-Women's Health Initiative era.
"Physicians need to be aware of this herbal product, its uses and its dangers," said Stanley M. Cohen, MD, assistant professor of medicine at the University of Chicago in Illinois. "If you have a female patient with an abnormal liver test or symptoms of liver disease, consider herbs, specifically black cohosh, as a cause."
He spoke with Medscape during a poster session here at the 68th annual scientific meeting of the American College of Gastroenterology.
The case report is an important reminder that physicians should always ask their patients about the use of herbal remedies, said Eamonn Quigley, MD, from the Department of Medicine at Cork University Hospital in Ireland.
"For the most part, they won't tell you unless you ask," he said. "Many physicians have made the assumption that herbal remedies are innocuous, but we now know they are not."
Dr. Quigley noted that several studies have shown high use of herbal products among patients with liver disease.
The use of black cohosh has increased since last year, when the Women's Health Initiative study demonstrated that use of HRT was associated with an increased risk of breast cancer and cardiovascular events.
"Since then, women have been looking for other products that can relieve menopausal symptoms," Dr. Cohen said, "and one of the most popular is black cohosh," also known as Actaea racemosa.
According to Catherine Ulbricht, PharmD, RPh, founder and editor of the Natural Standard Research Collaboration, which aggregates and synthesizes data on complementary therapies, several controlled trials and case series have reported black cohosh to improve menopausal symptoms, including hot flashes, mood disturbances, diaphoresis, palpitations, and vaginal dryness, for up to six months.
"Although these initial studies are suggestive, they have been few in number and have universally suffered from methodological weaknesses," said Dr. Ulbricht, who is also a senior attending pharmacist at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston.
"The mechanism of action of black cohosh remains unclear, and the effects on estrogen receptors or hormonal levels, if any, have not been fully elucidated. Safety and efficacy data beyond six months are not available," she added.
Dr. Cohen and colleagues came to the conclusion that their patient, a 57-year old woman, likely suffered from black cohosh–induced autoimmune hepatitis after exhaustive examination.
The woman, who presented with history of increasing fatigue and lethargy for two weeks, was receiving treatment for diabetes mellitus and hypertension, he said. For at least two years, she had been taking labetolol, fosinopril, verapamil, metformin, aspirin, and insulin.
At the advice of her primary physician, she had recently stopped HRT. She had started taking black cohosh three weeks prior to the onset of symptoms.
The patient said she did not drink, smoke, or use intravenous drugs, and had had no transfusions, tattoos, or recent travel to areas in which hepatitis is endemic.
Physical examination was unrevealing, Dr. Cohen said. Hepatitis A, B, and C serologies and smooth muscle antibodies were negative, but alkaline phosphatase was mildly elevated and antinuclear antibodies were positive at 1:640. A liver biopsy revealed piecemeal necrosis and lobular infiltrates with extensive plasma cells and eosinophils, both features of autoimmune and drug-induced hepatitis, Dr. Cohen said.
Black cohosh was discontinued, and the woman's symptoms resolved completely after two weeks. A tapering course of prednisone was started, Dr. Cohen said, and liver function tests were back to normal about nine weeks later.
Although this is the first reported case of autoimmune hepatitis likely induced by black cohosh, Dr. Cohen noted that a search of the literature revealed five other reports of associated hepatic toxicities — one case of fulminant hepatic failure, two cases of hepatitis, and two cases of mild elevation of liver enzymes.
"Patients on black cohosh should be monitored for evidence of hepatic dysfunction," Dr. Cohen said. "If physicians look for this, we'll be seeing more cases."
ACG 68th Annual Scientific Meeting: Abstract 53. Presented Oct. 12, 2003.
Reviewed by Gary D. Vogin, MD
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Authors and Disclosures

Author(s)

Charlene Laino

Charlene Laino is a freelance writer for Medscape.






FYI

[Rich66]

Ah..I thought I remembered a potential downside to cohosh.

[mimiflower07]

thanks for all your great replies. Does give me more reading material.

Hey Bill when the dust finally settled the last person standing was a women wearing pink no less...only this time she broke into song, singing "I will survive...or was it We Will We Will Rock You"....to be continued. Wait..the last song is what we sing a Manitoba hockey games not baseball!
Suzanne

[Rich66]

Actually..this is what I was remembering:

1: Cancer Res. (javascript:AL_get(this, 'jour', 'Cancer Res.');) 2008 Oct 15;68(20):8377-83.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/corehtml/query/egifs/http:--highwire.stanford.edu-icons-externalservices-pubmed-standard-canres_full.gif (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/utils/fref.fcgi?PrId=3051&itool=AbstractPlus-def&uid=18922910&db=pubmed&url=http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&pmid=18922910) Links (javascript:PopUpMenu2_Set(Menu18922910);)
Black cohosh increases metastatic mammary cancer in transgenic mice expressing c-erbB2.

Davis VL (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Davis%20VL%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Jayo MJ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Jayo%20MJ%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Ho A (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Ho%20A%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Kotlarczyk MP (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Kotlarczyk%20MP%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Hardy ML (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Hardy%20ML%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Foster WG (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Foster%20WG%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), Hughes CL (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Hughes%20CL%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus).
Graduate School of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Duquesne University, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15282, USA. davisv@duq.edu
Black cohosh is an herbal extract that is often used as an alternative to estrogen-based replacement therapies to treat hot flushes that frequently accompany the transition to menopause. Although cancer-free women as well as breast cancer patients and survivors use black cohosh to relieve vasomotor symptoms, there is limited information on its potential to influence breast cancer development or progression. Therefore, in this study, the effects of black cohosh on mammary tumorigenesis were investigated in the MMTV-neu mouse model due to its similarities to HER2(+) breast cancer, including stochastic development of mammary tumors, which frequently progress to metastatic disease. Using an adjusted dose for the mice to correlate to the recommended dose in women (40 mg/d), no differences were detected in the incidence or onset of mammary tumors in black cohosh-treated versus control females. The lack of effect on mammary tumor development suggests that black cohosh would not influence breast cancer risk if given to women before tumor formation. In contrast, black cohosh significantly increased the incidence of lung metastases in tumor-bearing animals compared with mice fed the isoflavone-free control diet. Additional studies will be needed to correlate these findings to women taking different black cohosh products at various times during breast cancer development; however, these results suggest caution for women using black cohosh, especially for extended periods of time. As metastatic progression is linked to patient survival, these data stress the importance of investigating how women's therapies influence all stages of mammary tumorigenesis, particularly for assessing their safety.
PMID: 18922910 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE