Question for R.B. or anyone else....

[PinkGirl]

When we are told to take all of these supplements, does this mean that the human body was made "wrong"?
I know that there is controversy over what kind of diet we
should all be eating - hunter/gatherer, caveman, going back
to the way we were meant to eat, etc. I know that
through the years our diet has changed drastically, but why
can't we just eat food? Doesn't needing all these
supplements mean there is something wrong with the
basic human body? Hope you understand this question.

[RhondaH]

I probably shouldn't respond to your post as I will end up saying something I shouldn't, but what the heck. I'll be honest with you, prior to my dx, my "views" were pretty much non existant, my diet was BEYOND attrocious (1 month prior to dx, I had been allergic to fish and fowl and just found out that I could eat fish, but since I was 4yo, I ate NOTHING but, beef, pork and sugar...lots and lots of sugar). Since dx, I pretty much LIVE the Breast Cancer diet I preach (though, yes I do give myself 1 "splurge" day a week), but in my opinion, I mistreated my body for the 1st 40 years of my life, now the next 40 years of my life, I was going to treat it well. Everything I read has said that supplements provide only 10% of what the actual food provides and as far as I was concerned, no food (or lack of food) was worth going through chemo again (NOT that diet and exercise alone are the answer, but I wanted to walk away knowing I did everything I could; surgery, chemo, rads, Herceptin, diet, exercise and prayer). I buy VERY little processed food (if you can call it food), eat REAL sugar and butter (I don't have much but, I just KNOW that like aspertame etc that made from sugar "splenda" can't be good for you, and I've read articles about margerine) eat fat (my MAIN fat comes from olive oil, canola oil, organic butter and 1% milk, fatty fish and yes, I DO still have meat though organic from a local farmer once a week). I'm considering about either writing a blog or book regarding how since the turn of the LAST century, all the "conveniences" that have been created to make our life easier has not only complicated our lives health wise (I know on here there is a study about housework and cancer and I can't help but feel that there is some truth to it), our lives in MANY ways are sedintary, but especially those of us w/ children, are "encouraged" to put them in every "activity" known to man, no one has TIME to cook from scratch any more ( I use VERY little packaged food and while my grocery bill is higher, it is due to all the fresh foods I buy...ironic, but there are NO coupons for the food/products I buy as all the coupons are for the latest and greatest food and product...curious, when you go shopping look at other peoples grocery carts and I BET they have WAY more frozen/packaged food than fresh, I know Meijers in GR, just expanded their frozen food section, it's HUGE), no one "rests" or sleeps anymore and it just seems like in MANY ways all the progress we have made (but not all) has set us back...just THINK of all the conveniences we have and what the ultimate price has become for it. Our local newspaper had an article today on consumption, but I can tell I'm starting to wander and will leave THAT topic alone. I read a book called the Omnivores Dilema and it is VERY interesting as to the entire food process, past and present. Bottom line, supplements are insurance for what you don't get enough of, but there is no substitute for real food (my salad for this week will have collard greens and cabbage, now if THAT isn't bitter...but I let the salad dressing marinate it to cut down the bitter). I had better quit, but I REALLY wonder if a "true" cure is possible due to the pharmaceutical companies (don't get me wrong they HELPED me, but to me medicine should be as short a term as possible) and the people making money off of the drugs. I'll probably regret "sharing" my opinion, but please this only "my" opinion. Take care and God bless.

Rhonda

[Mary Jo]

Hi Pink......I hear ya. Loud and clear. I often wonder the same thing(s). It's never easy to understand any of the "to supplement" or "not to supplement" talk. Some of it seems to make sense BUT just when I think it's making sense - a new study is released and I'm as confused as ever.

Simple - there's something to say about that. Simple meaning - healthy food - lots of sunshine and plenty of exercise. I like that!!!!!!!! BUT just incase simple isn't enough - maybe I'll throw in a couple supplements for good measure.http://www.her2support.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon7.gif

Rhonda, thanks for the informative post. You are right on the money in your thinking - in my opinion (for what it's worthhttp://www.her2support.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon12.gif) Although, I don't eat NEARLY as well as you do (but wish I did) you make me strive to do better and better each day.

So for today I'll take my D3, Magnesium, Folic Acid BUT maybe next week when new studies are released I won't.http://www.her2support.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon9.gif

I'm off to go sit on my confusion couch for now. Anyone want to join me.

Love & HUGE hugs,

Mary Jo

[Bill]

Hey Pinkie! No, the human body was made perfect. Wow, you have opened the floodgates here. Smarter, more educated people can correct me, but for now, I'm "gonna go with what I know". Aeons ago, we were created perfectly, (I'm tired of being grammatically and spelling correct all the time, it's the writer in me, forgive me), the food we ate was all natural, grains, hand-gathered fruits, berries, etc., and being omnivorous creatures, the animals we hunted and caught, and ate, as well ate those same foods, free of preservatives and chemicals. There was a natural "balance" within the food chain. A balance between the omega-3's and omega-6's and whatever else. The animals we ate were "balanced" in their composition in an ideal manner for we humans to consume. Thesedays, we feed our animals processed foods and chemicals and inject them with all sorts of growth hormones and antibiotics, and in my opinion, therein lies the big problem. In my opinion, to answer your question, most "supplements" need to be thrown into the ocean. (still trying to decide about the coq10, though) Simply eat as many fresh foods as possible, almonds, walnuts, blueberries, yogurt, fresh caught cod, haddock, salmon, spinach, broccoli, extra virgin olive oil, garlic, onions,red and orange peppers,bean sprouts, various mushrooms, you name it. Start a small "bucket garden". It's easy to grow carrots and spinach and other veggies, and it gets you out of the house and into the sunshine. I used to be a vitamin nut, but I gave it up years ago in favor of eating as many fresh foods as I could, and I feel so much better now. I love you all, Bill

[hutchibk]

HI Pink - the way I translate it, it's not that something is basically wrong with the human body, it's that something is terribly wrong with the way we eat. On the whole, western societies really don't eat in a nutritious way, at all. Many populations have turned to fast food, convenience foods, processed foods, snack foods, junk foods as the basis for their daily food intake. Many eat foods loaded with hydrogenated oils, preservatives, bleached flour fillers, etc and eat and drink too many items made with high fructose corn syrups. Many cook in microwaves (which is often thought to destroy all the nutrients in food). The commercialized food growers/producers use pesticides, use antibiotics, and add hormones to the mass food supplies. Basically, the way many populations eat has virtually little to no nutrition at all. All of these things contribute to our bodies becoming sluggish, not being able to digest properly and not being able to process the necessary nutrients to operate properly. I try really hard to eat as close to the earth as possible with nothing sprayed or added to the food I consume. I do divert sometimes and throw a burger and fries down my gullet, but that is a treat and not the norm. I think I do pretty well and get many if not most of the dietary vitamins and nutrients that I need by being pretty disciplined about my diet, so I truly don't need too many supplements... all I take these days, by order of my nutritionist, is Omega3, calcium/D, minerals, and B6.

I know that many of the more brilliant folks here will contribute scientific and biologic facts that will make my head spin, but I look forward to it because I am always up for learning something!

[PinkGirl]

Thanks for the replies. Do any of you ever question the historical facts? What exactly were the cavemen eating? Were their omega 3-6-9's balanced? Were the cavemen getting enough magnesium?

I agree with everyone that the fast, processed, chemical-ridden foods have got to be causing us harm. It's a no-brainer ... when you can't pronounce the list of ingredients, don't eat them. I just question the precise-ness of the recommendations regarding supplements -trying to make sense of it has sort of added a new problem into my life. I don't need a new one.

I absolutely believe that we should eat a well balanced, chemical-free diet of proteins, carbs and fats. What I have a problem with is needing a calculator to figure out the omega's and worrying about some fish oil capsule causing internal bleeding. I think I am venting..... thanks for all of your input. Maybe I'm just ticked because I don't like dark chocolate.

[Mary Jo]

OHHHHHHHH Pinkkkkk - I sooooooooooooo needed to laugh today. I'm having one of those sad kind of days (no reason - just feeling blue) and your post definitely lifted my spirits when I got to the end - about you venting because you don't like dark chocolate. Oh, that made me laugh. I was just taking a bit of my apple and I read that a piece went flying right out of my mouth.

I don't like dark chocolate either. I prefer milk choc. and guess what.............................................. that's the choc. I eat. You know why???? Because I want too!http://her2support.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon7.gif But I'll still keep taking my magnesium, folic acid, and Vit. D3 just in case. LOL! Oh ya....and the olive oil and cod liver oil. Maybe that will balance out the milk choc. and make me super healthy. Oh ya..........flax seed too.

Hugs

Mary Jo

[RhondaH]

I TOO don't like dark chocolate and WORSE than milk chocolate, I LOVE Endangered Species (REAL chocolate) White Chocolate with Macadamia Nuts...mmmm. Hey, you GOTTA live a little.

Rhonda

[R.B.]

HI Pink welcome to the struggle for knowledge.

It has taken a while for me to answer as I do not really have any in terms of the certainties you seek.

Internal bleeding fears - talk to your doctor. Evidence for increased bleeding dangers from high omega three fish oil intake is limited and relates to pretty high dosages of fish oil, and incidents are fairly rare. In general terms Eskimos and poor fishermen do quite well in the health stakes. Please see the Greek diet post which contains a link to a doctors observations on clinical use of Omega Threes.

It does seem to be a bit of a blue humanity moment several I have met seem slightly afflicted at the moment.

As to supplementation there are arguments in every direction fro every supplement.

As beings we have done quite well on a wide variety of diets. "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" Western A Price was a wise dentist who travelled the world in the 1920s (from memory) and observed that western diet seemed to equate to poorer dental health and jaw structure. Swiss mountain folk on traditional diets had very low rates of carries for example.

Food quality - chasing faster growing crops etc has arguably reduced nutrient quality.

Less variety - we arguable have much less variety in out modern diet.

More refined foods - we eat much higher levels of refined foods.

Deliberate alteration - crops are bred to suit food industry - eg low omega three grains - high starch grains etc.

Soil depletion - we arguable deplete our soils of minerals.

Supplementation - A whole subject on its own by supplement - insurance rather than the starting point. Food has to be the starting point as you argue yourself.

Omega three / six - I understand what you are saying basic rules

This site may help.

http://www.nutritiondata.com/

The Greek Diet Thread cover some of the below in more detail.

- Green things balanced more or less

- fish more omega three than six if wild

- oily ones are high in omega threes non oily ones have much lower levels.

- nut and seeds grains and their oils with some exceptions [eg flax]are high in omega six.

- the only high level sources of long chain omega threes are oily fish and true farm free ranging eggs.




RB

[Lolly]

RB, could you comment on Cod Liver Oil and Vit.D and what in what proportion to Fish Oil/Omega 3's? We have another thread going on and question has been raised about Vit.D supplements.

<3 Lolly

[hutchibk]

I think an important part of the equation is to remember that:

1. cavemen and cavewomen were not immune to disease and cancers,

2. they did not have linguistics much less medical and dietary knowledge, so they were probably not as healthy as you are assuming.

3. they were hunter-gatherers and ate as close to the earth as possible, and as RB pointed out, they ate foods that were not grown on over-farmed and nutrient void soil.

Just some thoughts to consider in this discussion...

[Alice]

I was in a class at college years ago that was a pre-nursing class and the instructor said outright that if we all had good diets that we would not need supliments. This was at the beginning of the vitamin furror that we have today.

I am also not sure that the hunter gatherers lived long enough to have any kind of cancer, short of a childhood cancer, this makes their diet of little importance to us today, when most cancers show up after our mid 20's. Just a thought.


Alice

[PinkGirl]

I'm sorry for the venting I did. I am basically not willing
to do the necessary research to make decisions regarding
supplements. I appreciate all of the links to studies, but
after reading them I need to take a seat on marejo's
confusion couch. Some of them are highly technical and
take much concentration and re-reading to absorb, and
the information is often contradictory.

Chrisy the new propeller head is trying to figure out the oleic
acid of olive oil and the new herceptin/toxin combo. There's
the new Vit. D study that contradicts everything we have
been told. There's research out of Princess Margaret in
Toronto about flax seed inhibiting ER+ tumours in mice.

I don't think it is unreasonable to want a precise answer to
the question "what supplements should I take?". And, at times,
I think that we are looking for anything to help us beat this
crappy disease. We want to do everything we can to survive.
Are we grasping at straws when we look for vitamins and
herbs to help keep us alive? I am venting again.
This is a huge industry and we are vulnerable.

I am very glad that I have never come across endangered species white chocolate with macadamia nuts.

280

[R.B.]

Hi Lolly,

Thanks for the question.

It is important to differentiate between Cod Liver and fish oil.

Cod liver I presume is mainly from the liver and contains A and D.

Fish oil is from the body of other species and is not listed as containing A and D.

Some products mix the two so check the label.

Beyond a few basic searches and ensuring I use a mix of cod liver oil and fish oil, or a product that mixes the two, on the grounds that Eskimos and fisherman seem to manage quite well, for moderate consumption [eg not more than 3tps a day] of cod liver, and maybe the some fish oil as well I took a view that I was probably in fairly safe territory.

As usual life is rarely simple and there are always exceptions so please advise your doctor you are taking cod liver / fish oil and discuss the matter with your medical adviser.

Here is a link to an informative site that from my previous experience contains considered and researched information. As usual there is debate among the experts on the optimal dosages. There is more interesting material on vitamin A dosages sources etc at this link;

http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/clarifications.html

Abstract

" Vitamin D

The recommended dosages for cod liver oil provide about 500 IU vitamin D for children, 1000 IU vitamin D for adults, 2000 IU vitamin D for pregnant and nursing women and up to 9000 IU for those taking large amounts of cod liver oil to deal with stress and disease.

In 1997, the Food and Nutrition Board of the US Institute of Medicine set the tolerable upper intake level (TUIL) for vitamin D at 2000 IU per day. However, the vitamin D content experts on the Upper Limits Panel objected to this limit, and several prominent vitamin D researchers have called for an upward revision of the limit. Experiments show that even during the winter with a low vitamin D intake, humans will exhaust stores of vitamin D at a rate of 3000-4000 IU per day, an amount that many people require to maintain optimal levels of the vitamin in the blood. Extensive exposure to summer sun at mid latitudes naturally produces levels of vitamin D in the blood equivalent to what is attained by supplementing with a continued daily dose of 10,000 IU, suggesting humans are designed to tolerate such large amounts of vitamin D.(4)

If you are a lifeguard or spend a lot of time in the sun, you do not need to take supplemental vitamin D; however you still need to consume adequate vitamin A. Animal studies show that even moderate amounts of vitamin D increase the body's need for vitamin A, whether the vitamin D is provided in the diet or by UV light (2,5). So, if you cut back or eliminate cod liver oil in the summer, be sure to consume plenty of oily fish, liver, butterfat and egg yolks from grass-fed hens to ensure adequate vitamin A.

For a discussion of Vitamin D Toxicity, see
http://www.cholecalciferol-council.com/toxicity.pdf

This does not mean we do not recommend that some individuals have their vitamin D levels tested. Such testing can be very useful in determining vitamin D status and the effectiveness of cod liver oil or vitamin D supplements.
Cod Liver Oil"


Links for Cod Liver Oil and Fish Oil - note one has A and D and the other does not.

http://www.vitacost.com/Carlson-Norwegian-Cod-Liver-Oil-High-In-EPA-DHA

http://www.vitacost.com/Carlson-The-Very-Finest-Fish-Oil

[Lolly]

Thanks, R.B.! Very helpful information.

<3 Lolly

[Mary Jo]

R.B.,

Three words for you......................YOU'RE THE BEST!!!

Thanks so much. That information was so very helpful to me. Especially that about the D3. I just found a D3 that is 2000 I.U. I take one of those in the morning and one in the evening. However, I've stopped taking Calcium w/D because I've heard taking this much D3 (I also get about 1200 i.u. of D3 in my tablespoon of Cod Liver oil) can cause too much calcium build up. Is that correct R.B.?

Again, thanks. I mean it - you really are the best.

Mary Jo

[R.B.]

Marejo.

Thanks for the kind words.

The credit is down to google and Western Price.

I am afraid I cannot add to the calcium Vit D magnesium debate.

From my wanders it is evident that the metabolism of calcium is complicated to say the least. It is a subject I have skirted round.

If bone density is the issue please see posts to trials suggesting that balancing the Omega 3s and 6s and long chain Omega 3 will assist in maintaining bone density.

I have looked up coronary calcification as I have previously noticed there is suggested link to vascular damage and fats metabolism and intake. [Including inflammation which takes us back to excess Omega six and lack of Omega three].

I will try and refind the material I have seen and come back with something a bit more understandable if I can.

In the mean time here are two links I have just found that give a hint as to how complex and interlinked it all is - and so an arguments for getting the best diet you can before supplementation.

Here is a link that gives some calcium sources - so you may already be getting more than you realise.

Please discuss your dietary issues with your medical advisor.




Coronary Artery Calcification: Pathophysiology, Epidemiology, Imaging Methods, and Clinical Implications
A Statement for Health Professionals From the American Heart Association

http://www.circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/94/5/1175





This trial may suggest that lower oestrogen levles adds to the risk factors

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/356/25/2591

Estrogen Therapy and Coronary-Artery Calcification

Abstract

Among women 50 to 59 years old at enrollment, the calcified-plaque burden in the coronary arteries after trial completion was lower in women assigned to estrogen than in those assigned to placebo.

[Mary Jo]

Sorry R.B. but the articles you have included for me to read were way beyond my comprehension. I guess I'm not the sharpest tack in the box http://her2support.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon6.gif but you are........ so I'll be waiting on an easier, more understandable explanation from you.http://her2support.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon14.gif

Thanks again R.B.

Mary Jo

[Mgarr]

Mary Jo,

I have had a difficult time with the articles too but due to the vigilance of RB (THANK YOU THANK YOU). I have really examined my diet and done some more reading. I am currently reading a book written by a rheumatologist (to reduce my inflammatory arthrits) that explains Omega 3/6's and dietary needs. This is what is he has written about Vit. D.

"if you live in a climate w/ lots of sun exposure you'll need 400IU in supplement form a day. If you live in Northern w/ less sunlight you will need 800IU (117, Blau)"

The following link is understandable as well.


http://www.supplementwatch.com/suplib/supplement.asp?DocId=1279

I have started the 28 day anti inflammatory diet he suggests I will let you all know my outcome. I have discussed this with my own rheumatologist who is willing to cut my Enbrel doses down and we have discussed discontinuing it altogether.


Hope this helps a little.

Mar

[R.B.]

Mgarr

You are welcome. Thanks for the thanks.

Thank you for that useful and informative link and site.

You might be interested in

http://her2support.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=24410&highlight=greek+diet

Towards the end there is a link to an exellent medical article on Omega 3s and 6s and arthritis etc. [Last page look for the bee and mouse!]

Marejo

I struggle to grasp more than bits, so it is not just you [and I do not think it is the propelling pencil either] but the links do show how complex and interlinked it all is. Calcium has important roles in the metabolism of fats in the body and omega six pathways. Fats have a role in just about everything. I am rereading bits at the moment to try and get a better grasp of how calcium fits in the fats pathways.

[Mgarr]

RB,

I printed the "Fish Oil arthritis" article this morning I am sure I will be reading & rereading for quite some time. I may be back with some questions,that is if I can pose an intelligent one.

Thanks again for all your research & info.

Mary