R.B. & other brainiacs - supplement ????

[Donna]

Hello Amazing Group,

I need to know about instructions given about taking supplements. When it is stated (for instance) "always take your Omegas with Vitamin E or it won't be used by the body correctly" - does that mean LITERALLY take it at the same time, or does it mean during the course of the day?

It was my understanding that all these chemicals, especially the fat soluble ones, stay in your system for awhile unlike the water soluble ones which might be more critical to LITERALLY take at the same time.

Any elucidation on this point is welcome!

Thanks! Have a great day!

Donna

[chrisy]

Donna, sorry I can't elucidate on that point - although I have also come across this in my reading. But I commend you for using such a fabulous word. Also, I know R.B. will be enthralled by being referred to as a brainiac!

Take care
chris

[BonnieR]

Donna, I join Chris in giving you major points for your vocabulary!! Good question too. Sometimes things are not as obvious as they seem....

Chris, I notice in your bio you do not mention if you were HER2 tested in '02???

[R.B.]

I had to look brainiac up!! Smilies required. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainiac_(comics)

Brainiac is a fictional character, a DC Comics supervillain and frequent opponent of Superman. Created by Otto Binder, he first appeared in Action Comics #242 (July 1958). Due to complex storylines involving time travel, cloning, and revisions of DC's continuity, several variations of Brainiac have appeared.

Brainiac has been one of Superman's most important enemies ever since the villain's first appearance, and is responsible for shrinking Kandor, the capital city of Superman's home planet Krypton which the hero has vowed to restore.

Though at his core Brainiac is formless, most incarnations depict him as a bald, green-skinned alien android from the planet Colu, and one of the most intelligent villains in the DC universe, capable of possessing others, creating and manipulating computer systems, and exerting some control over time and space. Brainiac's name derives from the -IAC naming trend among early electronic computers, after ENIAC: ILLIAC, JOHNNIAC, MANIAC, SILLIAC, etc. In the television series Smallville, BRAINIAC is said to stand for "BRAIN InterActive Construct".



I am not that good looking and have frequent computer problems. Time and space seem to be eluding me at the moment, and I have never come across Superman.

A lack of hair - yes and a desire to be green..but just can't manage computers or that time thing.

Re omega threes and vitamin E

I have not seen that suggestion beyond vit E being an antioxidant and so helping protect the omega threes from oxidation.

Omgea threes are not highly stored and used in preference to omega six, which would suggest regular supply is good.

Fats are stored in the body fat and cell membranes.

I have seen it suggested that shorter chain fats help the body absorb fat soluble vitamins etc. Eg Coconut (small amounts).

I have not looked at best times to take for omega threes. More fundamental is to balance the omega three and six intake, and ensure a supply of long chain omega threes. Take up in women of DHA was shown in a trial to drop off at about 2 grams a day.

See the Greek diet post last post re whole fish v fish oil.

Fish oil thins blood etc so please talk to your doctor about significant dietary change.

RB

[chrisy]

I was not tested in 02 - I had DCIS only and at that time they did not do the same types of pathological testing as they do now. Now, of course, there is more information of all kinds regarding DCIS and prognostic factors.

That said, DCIS only, even with Her2 and other testing, is a tough one for them to get their little brains around in terms of treatment (or not) and I find that in most cases the most aggressive treatment is radiation, Herceptin is not a "slam dunk" even now.

[hutchibk]

My nutritionist has me take all of my vits/spplmts with meals, preferably in the middle of a meal... (which I almost never do)

[Donna]

Hi Amazing Group,

My son was in the local play of Disney's High School Musical and they referred to the really smart kids as "brainiacs".

Anyway, I had just read in a book called "What to Eat if You Have Cancer" this line that made me wonder about how to take supplements:

"The four fat-soluble vitamins families, A, D, E, and K are often depleted in cancer patients. This is usually caused by fat malabsorption. These vitamins are often difficult to obtain in the diet, and a low-dose supplement can be very helpful in rebuilding stores. Vitamin E is a notoxic antioxidant that protects the other fat-soluble vitamins and oils from oxidation. It can be taken in larger doses and should always accompany any supplemented oils (such as flaxseed or fish oil), and the other fat-soluble vitamins."

So, I was wondering:

1 - does this mean take the E and omega oils concurrently
2 - I thought there was an upper limit for vitamin E considered not toxic, but not beneficial
3 - does vitamin E protect cancer cells from apoptosis
4 - I know that oxidation is what free radicals are supposed to take care of, so this makes sense, except isn't oxidation a by product of apoptosis and if so, now what??????

I sometimes wonder if the supplements I take are actually hurting me instead of helping me.

Best to you - and I hope someone out there has an answer on this!

Donna

[Donna]

Anyone have the answer to the question about taking supplements together - what EXACTLY does that mean?

Thanks

Donna

[R.B.]

Donna

Thanks for the brainiac complement.

I would repeat for those that haven't seen it before that I am not an expert nutritionist. I'm just a nerd who has spent rather a lot of time reading trials and books on the specific subject of fats.

I am guessing from your posts that you are pondering the topic of diet. (No great genius there :) )

The key phrase for me in the quote that you have cited is “this is usually caused by fat malabsorption”. If your digestion is not working properly you will not be absorbing fats properly. If you have inflammation in your digestive system, it will not work properly.

There is a good book by Elaine Gottschall Breaking the Vicious Cycle. This explains in simple terms some of the causes of poor digestion.

If you're omega-3 6 balance is a long way out of balance you are more likely to suffer from inflammatory conditions. My personal experience is balancing the omega threes and sixes significantly assists in improving the digestion.

Most people do not have enough omega-3 and that diet, so poor absorption is in a sense a double whammy. Increasing your omega-3 content in your diet will increase the chances that at least some is getting absorbed.

In addition increasing your omega-3 intake and reducing omega six intake should help reduce inflammatory pressures, which includes inflammation in the digestive system.

So in this rather roundabout way what I'm trying to say is before worrying about your vitamin E. intake ensure that your digestion is working as best you can get it, and balancing of omega threes and sixes. (and the usuals avoid processed foods, get plenty of green things variety etc)

In respect of your questions on vitamin E. It is not a subject that I have read much on. Here is a link that looks at dosages

http://www.vitacost.com/Healthnotes/Supp/Vitamin-E.aspx

Oxidation is a difficult subject and there are no easy answers. You are asking some very fundamental questions, many of which at the moment aren't answered. Can't live with it and can't live without it. Some oxidation is good :) and some oxidation is bad :( . It is all a question of balance. There are no definitive answers.

If you are looking for something to change that really might make a significant difference to your risk profile it is to balance the omega threes and sixes, and ensure an adequate apply of the long chain omega threes DHA and EPA.

I'm in the process of finalising a book on omega threes and sixes and oxidation is one of the issues that it looks at. It will hopefully be available in November.


Here are some trial links and abstracts I found on Vitamin E some good some bad.

RB

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17704032&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

1: Asia Pac J Clin Nutr. 2007;16(3):498-504.Links
Tocotrienol levels in adipose tissue of benign and malignant breast lumps in patients in Malaysia.
Nesaretnam K, Gomez PA, Selvaduray KR, Razak GA.
Malaysian Palm Oil Board, 6 Persiaran Insitusi, Bandar Baru Bangi, 43000 Kajang, Malaysia. sarnesar@mpob.gov.my

“The study reveals that dietary intake influences adipose tissue fatty acid levels and that adipose tissue is a dynamic reservoir of fat soluble nutrients. The higher adipose tissue concentrations of tocotrienols in benign patients provide support for the idea that tocotrienols may provide protection against breast cancer.”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=11834215&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus
1: J Nutr Biochem. 2002 Jan;13(1):2-20. Links
Does lack of tocopherols and tocotrienols put women at increased risk of breast cancer?
Schwenke DC.
Wake Forest University School of Medicine, Winston-Salem, NC, USA

"Thus, it seems plausible that the modest protection from breast cancer associated with dietary vitamin E may be due to the effects of the other tocopherols and the tocotrienols in the diet."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17011908&ordinalpos=18&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
Effect of vitamin E on tamoxifen-treated breast cancer cells.
Peralta EA, Viegas ML, Louis S, Engle DL, Dunnington GL.
Department of Surgery, Southern Illinois University School of Medicine, Springfield, Ill, USA. eperalta@siumed.edu
“These studies suggest that supplemental vitamin E decreases the inhibitory effect of TAM on the proliferation of ER+ breast cancer cells and eliminates the rapid rise in intracellular calcium that leads to apoptosis stimulated by TAM. The use of vitamin E acetate supplements may be inadvisable for women taking tamoxifen.”

[Becky]

It is the oxidation process that causes most free radicals in the body. Kind of weird that as soon as a new baby is born and takes its first breath, the damage begins (so to speak). I sometimes chuckle thinking about the only way to truly stop free radical formation is to stop breathing but then, duh?

Antioxidants are really chemicals that are chemically, reducing agents. In organic chemistry - reducing agents donate a hydrogen atom. Really good reducing agents donate a hydrogen molecule (H2). However, in inorganic chemistry (some of which occurs in the body via peroxide reactions), reducing agents lose electrons.

So reducing agents neutralize the oxidative process and soak up the free electrons or hydrogen atoms that are given off during reactions in the body that primarily have to do with manufacturing and using energy via the Krebs cycle in the mitochondria. All food eventually digested to glucose which the mitochondria break down (in the presence of oxygen which is why we breath it in) to produce ATP which is what the body really uses for cellular energy. Making ATP and breaking it down is what makes the bulk (not all) of the free radicals. So if you stop breathing and eating.... you will still be in big trouble so eat your fruit and vegetables.

[R.B.]

I think Becky knows more than I do :)

It is all a question of balance and the right types of oxidation with the right fuel.

A bit like the fire in the fire place. You don't want it getting out of hand. It needs the right fuel to burn well etc.

RB.

[Donna]

I knew I could count on the "brainiacs" here to help me with this question! I think I have a better understanding of how this works now - it's confusing stuff! I know the chemistry of glass, but chemistry for nutrition is definintely a complex subject!

Thank you so much for taking the time to research and answer my questions so thoroughly, I really appreciate it!

Have a great day,

Donna