Omega three six balance. How many consider in their diet.

[R.B.]

I would be really grateful for some idea as to now many of you consider the omega three six balance as part of your diet.

How many supplement EPA and DHA and how much.

How important do you consider diet as an adjunct to treatment.



Just your thoughts generally would be helpful.


Many thanks

RB

[hutchibk]

Hi RB - Here is a good book that I found... and I consult with the doc who wrote it. He is in Seattle, I am in Texas, but I make phone appointments and he offers me a plan based on what my onc has me doing. He consults with my onc first and likes to be updated on my progress and/or set-backs. Of course I need to call him tomorrow due to my treatment changes.

Honestly, I have been a bit lazy about his supportive and integrative supplement plan since I last talked to him in October, but it is time for me to get serious again. He doesn't go to the fringes with anything, he sticks close to conventional supplementation (although he knows what the fringes are doing and you can ask him about it...he will give his opinion). With me, he mostly works with vitamins (dosaging is one of the most important aspects, what you can and can't take when you are on certain chemos) as well as a few extras like L-glutamine, etc. He's not much of a fan of anything that has no true regulations in place (chinese herbs) for chemo patients, and he does sell certain brands vitamins (they are formulated specifically for his dosages.) What I have found is that his vits are equal in price or less than what I used to buy at Whole Foods. And he has total control over the ingredients that go into them.

>>>>
In Complementary Cancer Therapies, Dan Labriola has written a book that attempts to bridge the gap between “conventional” and “alternative” medicine for the patient with cancer. As such, this volume meets a need that has not been successfully addressed elsewhere. Most of what is written on other books for the lay reader emphasizes one approach to exclusion (and often denigration) of the other. Yet many who have recently received a diagnosis of this dreaded disease are actively searching for all available means to relieve their suffering, prolong their lives, and (if possible) achieve a cure. I am a “conventional” practitioner, but one who is well aware that patients use “alternative” therapies. If such therapies are to be employed, it is important to recognize that they have biological effects. Some may be helpful, others harmful. Harm is an especially likely consequence when one agent competes with another and decreases the antitumor efficacy.

Unfortunately, most forms of alternative therapy have not been subjected to rigorous testing by the scientific method. Incentives to do this have been lacking since there is a little financial reward and the agents employed are not regulated by the government like prescription drugs are. Such testing is, however, now underway; some of it sponsored by the federal government. As more information based on randomized trials become available, it should be possible for the cancer patient to make more intelligent choices about what, if any, alternative therapies to elect.

In the meantime, Dr. Labriola offers what information exists regarding the potential usefulness of the naturopath’s armamentarium. He also provides pithy, readily understood summaries of how various cancers are staged and treated according to “conventional” approaches. The toxicities of the latter are well described, but fairly.

This volume can serve as a valuable reference for practitioners on both sides of the present fence. Most important, it should act as a resource and advisor for the perplexed patient or family member who is in between.

~ Forward written by Robert B. Livingston, M.D., Professor of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine, and Chief of the Division of Oncology, University of Washington Medical Center.

“…loaded with information for anyone with cancer.” Bernie Siegel, M.D., author of the best-selling Love, Medicine, and Miracles and Prescriptions for Living

[LAURIE]

I try to eat a high fiber, low fat diet with 12 servings of veggies a day. I also supplement with 20 fish oil tablets(each pill 1000 mg) = 20,000 mg. EPA- 120 mg each pill, DHA-120 mg each pill. I also supplement with Vitamin D, selenium, CoQ10, milk thistle and multi vitamin.

You would think a breast cancer diagnosis would change my eating habits and be easy to do but the power of sugar is super high for me, my will power is horrrible. I have to go, Turtle pie is ready for desert.

[Becky]

I eat a high fiber diet with lots of veggies and some fruit. I take 4-8 fish oil capsules per day and 2 cod fish oil tablets. The amount depends on my intake of fatty fish (then I will take less fish oil tablets) or fish in general (where I will take alittle more but not as much as if I have salmon, tuna, halibut). I have walnuts almost every morning with plain nonfat yogurt, berries and other fruit and extra fiber all bran cereal (or Uncle Sam's). I use wheat germ on this mix half the time and the other half I put ground flax.


I try to be as low fat as I can but I am not obsessive about it. I eat a salad with lemon juice for lunch every day (I am not sure about the oil in the "oil and vinegar" selection on the work salad bar so I don't use it). For dinner we have fish 2X per week and vegetarian 2 or 3 X per week and then usually chicken. We do occassionally eat beef and pork. I make salad and veggies again. I always make a starch as my husband and I are both runners and we HAVE to have it. I use only extra virgin olive oil (or canola for high heat - yes, sometimes I still make fried chicken!!).

I also take a mulit, CoQ 10, vitamin D, cranberry (suffered from UTI's), olive leaf and tumeric.

That's my diet and I'm sticking to it.

[R.B.]

Thank your for the replies

B Hutchinson - I will try and find the book. My main interest is omega three and six of course within the frame work of varied nutrient dense whole food diet - lots of fruit and veg etc. I find that this subject alone is massive and ever expanding. For me fats are very fundamental and in evolution/design terms came well before particular nutrients (which may well have a place and real effect e.g. Curcumin) and for me there is increasing evidence that balanced omega three and six, ensuring a supply of long chain EFAs and strict moderation are likely dietary pillars.

Laurie - do you watch intake of other fats as part of your dietary considerations? Depending on your budget etc you might like to think about bottled fish oil - I suspect it may be a cheaper option.


Again many thanks

RB

[AlaskaAngel]

On our last trip back to Alaska I found that the brand of wild Alaskan salmon and fish oil blend we were getting in Canada wasn't available, and I haven't found it here at home either, so since then I've been using a fish oil concentrate of anchovy, sardine, mackerel and soy but am still looking around. It has 1200 mg of fish oil concentrate, 216 mg of Omega-3 (EPA) and 144 mg of Omega-3 (DHA) per capsule, and I take 2 of these a day. I eat a handful of walnuts every day (more than I should). I have 2 tablespoons of freshly ground flax seed in 1/4 cup of unsweetened soy milk with added stevia. I use only olive oil for cooking and salads. I eat fresh salmon 1-2 times a week, fresh halibut once every otherweek, canned tuna, no beef or pork, occasional organic chicken, organic eggs, a little organic butter, and a little organic sour cream. I use about 1/8 teaspoon of turmeric a day just in various foods. I don't use sugar in anything but I do sneak in a small piece of dark chocolate here and there so that I have at least one imperfection! I don't know if I've done a good job of balancing my fats or not. I eat salad and fresh-steamed veggies with dinner. I haven't been able to figure out how to add any fresh fruit to the diet without steadily gaining weight.

Other supplements: a multivitamin, 1/4 of a 200-mg selenium, CoQ10 50 mg 2 x a day, vitamin D3 400 IU, 2 Viactive calcium/magnesium/vit K/vit D.

AlaskaAngel

[Margerie]

Supplements: 2,000 mg fish oil (360mg EPA, 240 mg DHA)
2,600 mg flaxseed oil (omega-3 1460 mg, omega-6 312mg, omega-9 286 mg), 1-2 tablespoons ground flax.

I don't know about balance either- it seems this may be too much? (I am a big lady!)

Diet: no pork or beef, fish 1-2 x week, chicken or vegetarian 3-4x week, olive oil for cooking except peanut oil when I make stir fry, Earth Balance Omega-3 enriched spread (non-gmo, non-hydrogenated organic oil blend-palm fruit, soybean, flax, canola and olive), dessert once a week (Laurie- you can do it too, it took me awhile to wrap around the concept, the less I eat it, the less I want it), dark chocolate 1oz., lots of fruit, veggies, no processed foods (except Wheat Thins- can't seem to find a substitute here), not many potato dishes, no fried foods, brown rice pasta (it's good!), whole wheat bread and tortillas.

I also hike 5 hours a week and lift weights. I am needing to drop a considerable amount of weight- and it is daunting. I have been VERY good for three weeks and managed to lose 5 pounds. This is going to be tough. Since I started behaving diet-wise three weeks ago- my fatigue has vanished. Coincidence?

[Odette]

Hi Brenda, Laurie, Becky, AlaskaAngel,

Thanks for your description of your diets!
I'm doing much of the same except I call it modified macrobiotic.
How did you decide what dose of CoQ 10 to take?
I'm about ready to start on that, but some sources say as much as 390 mg and most say a lot less.

Best wishes to all!

Odette

[R.B.]

This is the cheapest source of coQ10 I have seen. (which is not to say there are not others. I have no interest beyond being a customer) They are also helpful and efficient.

They have some information on coq10 on the site.

http://www.vitacost.com/productResults.aspx?Ntk=products&ss=1&x=15&y=12&Ntt=coq10


Here are two links. I have started taking Coq10 at higher dosages but must stress it very much an unknown as there does not seem to be much research.

http://altmedicine.about.com/cs/supplements/a/CoenzymeQ10.htm

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/coenzyme-q10/NS_patient-coenzymeq10

RB

[Roz]

hi RB. Since my last recurrence I have consulted a very good naturapath and i am taking 6000 mg Omega 3 as well as Zinc for my recurring shingles, magnesium and calcium, as well as selenium and a herbal mix of Korean Ginseng, Astragulus and Licorice nt while I am on Taxol/Herceptin. I feel great!!

[R.B.]

Margerie

You asked about balance. Everything contains fats grass flowers wheat insects animals etc. How much and what alters. The amount of omega three and six in green things and root vegetables is in very approximate terms about equal but a small proportion a few parts per thousand.

We get it by eating it.

Seeds (including wheat) have more 1-2% but are generally high in omega six with limited exception eg flax.

Nuts have quite high levels of fats of which quite a lot is omega six. Walnuts contain a little omega three.

Meat and chicken contain quite a lot of fat but only a small proportion is omega three and six.

The mother fat is found in green things seeds nuts etc.

The daughters DHA and EPA are only found in living things, and only in really significant amounts in oily fish.

This site lets you look food contents up.

http://www.nutritiondata.com/topics/fatty-acids


You have to label read and watch out for vegetable oils, what type etc. It is a bit of a pain to start but I soon got the gist of good watch and bad in terms of omega three six balance.

RB

[Lolly]

Well, my diet hasn't been very good lately but after reading what the rest of you are doing I'm inspired to try harder! Here are the supplements I take daily, which hopefully counteract some of my dietary sins:

Ultra Omega 3-6-9 by KAL. I've been taking one daily, but think I should up it to two.
CoQ-10, 100 mg.(nervous about anti-oxidants while on chemo)
B-100 complex one daily
Acidophilus gel caps, 4 daily
One good Multi-Vit and Mineral tab
Viactiv calcium chews, 2-3
Vit.D, 400 mg.
Magnesium Oxide 400 mg
Melatonin, 2 mg.

We do eat a lot of veggies and fruit, but too much red meat (grass fed organic) and chicken(and dairy), and not enough fish...will be striving to flip that equation!

<3 Lolly

[R.B.]

Lolly is balancing the omega threes and sixes and the omega three an issue on your horizon...........

3-6-9. For those with a perfect diet a 3-6-9 is good, but for most if they look at their diet they will find it is already high in omega six and the thing that is missing is omega three.

Most 3-6-9 will be vegetable based so containing only the mother fats, and not the long chain daughters DHA and EPA. IF for any reason your body is not making long chain fats very well then you will be short.

Only fish oil - oily fish and vegetarian substitutes contain high levels of DHA and EPA.

DHA is the one that is often cited in BC trials as reducing risk.

A trial suggested that women's uptake of DHA drops off at about 2 grams of DHA a day - about 4 tps of fish oil - or a portion of oily fish.

[MJo]

I am in awe of the self discipline and good eating habits here. I take centrum silver, calcium and a fish oil capsule. That's it. My diet isn't too good. I eat a lot of carbs and give in to my sweet tooth too often. Some days I eat a lot of vegetables & fruits. Some days I eat none. The good news is that I have an appointment with the cancer center's nutritionist next week.

[R.B.]

This site lets you look food contents up.

http://www.nutritiondata.com/topics/fatty-acids

Sorry I left it out earlier.

RB

[Joy]

Hey R.B., I love all of your information and just wanted to share. I used to take a billion things and when I remember and take the time to eat, I eat really well and have eaten well for years (pre-diagnosis even) i.e. all organic, whole grains, tons of fruits and vegetables-my favorite food is salad with olive oil-for real. I've never been a big meat eater, very rarely in my adult life and small amounts as a kid. Lots of garden veggies and some junk when I was a kid too. I love wild salmon and try to eat that weekly.

I took EVERYTHING throughout my diagnoses: cal/mag, antiox, b's, coq10, turmeric, quercitin, mushrooms, organic green drinks, garlic and efa's heavy on the 3's and all that kind of supplement stuff.

Then as we all share info and research and i do a lot of my own especially nutrition relate i started to get really confused about what might interfere w/ chemo, herceptin (i've even tried to understand what substrates are). I also got confused by hormone receptor status and flax, as one example, and what is preventative vs. proliferative.

So now I just don't know what to take given whatever drugs I am on (meaning chemo, not like heroin or anything:)). I am taking Fishsmart Ultra by Renew life anywhere from 300-900mg (epa) and 200-600 (dha)/day. I also take my probitics too.

So, I don't know what to do given all the variables. As an experiment I stopped taking all of the other stuff during this time of stability on navelbine/herceptin to see if we would get tumor regression i.e. was anything I was on interfering with chemo.

I wish I could get a very researched, balanced customized supplement plan given that I am stage IV, her +++, er+/pr+ on navelbine/herceptin with a potential for tykerb/xeloda in the future.

just volunteering too much information as usual.

thank you for all of your interest and information.

[Lolly]

RB, here's the breakdown of my 3-6-9 supplement:

Flax Seed Oil, 400 mg. - 212 mg Alpha Linolenic Acid, 47 mg Linoleic Acid and 75 mg Oleic Acid.

Fish Oil, 400 mg. (from "molecularly distilled fish oil from cold water fish") - 72 mg EPA and 48 mg DHA.

Borage Seed Oil, 400 mg. - 128 mg Linoleic Acid, 76 mg Gamma Linolenic Acid and 78 mg Oleic Acid.

If this sounds like "Snake Oil", I'm open to suggestions on whether I need to just go with just a straight Omega 3...

<3 Lolly

[Mary Jo]

Hello R.B.

I started a thread to you or whomever could help me decipher the Omega 3 supplement I am taking. The rest of my diet story is listed in their as well. Since herceptin is done, Oct. 11, 2006 I am down about 20 pounds. Some of that I think is just ridding my body of the drugs BUT I know I've changed a lot of things in my diet. Especially elimating LOTS of sugar.

Thanks for all you do to educate us here at her2support.

Mary Jo

[R.B.]

Snake Oil !!!!!

Ironically the original Chinese snake oil was used for inflammatory conditions, arthritis etc. It is reported it was made from water snakes which are reputedly high in long chain omega threes!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil


Lolly

You need to also consider sources of omega six in your diet - vegetable oils mainly - what do you cook with - do you use margarine or equivalent spread - do you check labels of processed foods.

There is an argument for moderate fat intake too.

Nothing wrong with a bit of GLA. The items listed are in dietary terms low and do not contain much omega six - but it depends how many units of the supplements you are taking.

By way of example a brazil nut contains a gram of omega six. 46 grams of sunflower seeds contains 15 grams of omega six!!! So nuts and oily seeds in moderation except flax etc.

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20nc.html

If you want to increase your long chain omega three DHA etc, and are not vegetarian fish oil is the best option. Bottled is cheaper. Those labelled cod liver have different profile from fish oil and different levels of A and D etc.

Please do talk to your doctor as fish oil does lead to blood thinning etc.


Thank you ever body for the kind words. It is encouraging that people are thinking about essential fat intake and whilst it is always difficult to draw conclusions with better diet seeing improvement in life quality.

RB

[Lolly]

Thank you RB, and especially for the education on the real use of "snake oil". Never again will I use that term as a deragatory reference! I only cook with EVOO(perhaps I should add snake oil to my culinary cabinet) although I do use small amounts of butter when I hanker for a piece of toast(whole grain of course!)
I've been taking only one capsule daily of this supplement. I was wondering if I needed to take 2 caps, but will look for a straight fish oil capsule to add instead. And will talk to my onc.

Thanks again,
<3 Lolly

[Rupali]

Fish Oil from Carlsons: 1 teaspoon Omega 3 fatty acids 1100 to 1250mg

Flax Oil from Integrative Therapeutics Inc.: 1 tablespoon Omega3=5250mg, Omega6=2625mg, Omega9=2600mg,GLA=325mg

Apart from this I cook in olive oil and have a long list of supplements that I take.
I am on a low fat high fiber diet and primarily a vegetarian diet with salmon once in 2 weeks.