PDA

View Full Version : Brain MRI frequency?


Concerned...
02-08-2006, 05:40 AM
I have a question. Is there any recommended studies or protocol about how often one who has Her2+ b.c. should have an MRI? I was fortunate to have had Herceptin for a year during my initial treatment for b.c. I have had brain MRI's since but my oncologist and neurologist have begun acting 'weird' about it. Most recently, I asked my oncologist about getting a new brain MRI since my last one was a year ago. I have begun getting headaches in the back/top of my head. I get them daily. They do not last for that long but are increasing in frequency. I also get bouts of vertical double vision. I also have a feeling of pressure on my head and sometimes feel like I am in a long tunnel. I was told by my neurologist who had previously ordered the MRI's that the oncologist would now do it. I am being treated at an HMO. They recently began including a coded diagnosis page in the chart(s) with a medicare billing code. (I am not on medicare; my employer offers this insurance). My page had a list of many coded diagnoses for me. The second one listed was 'secodary malignant neoplasm of the brain and spinal cord.' (No where on this coded page does it list hat they treated me for breast cancer or that I had a diagnosis from them of such. The form lists "anemia unspecified for diagnosis that was given at time of my bilateral mastectomy." Most recently it states that there is a "personal history of malignant neoplasm of the breast" but date on that was 4.5 years after my mastectomy. There are also some weird things listed and an important omission. It does not list that I have lymphedema and am being treated for such. It also listed that I had syncope and collapse (fainting) but I have NEVER fainted. In addition it lists that I have an aortic valve disoders. I do have a congenital heart murmer but have a very healthy heart. My fear is that they are gearing up for an eventual metastatic diagnosis but are finding things to deny me additional use of Herceptin. In addition if they delay doing something about brain mets that could mean by the time they image or re-image them it will be too late for me to get focused radiation.
My oncologist had previously told me that he doesn't order MRI's unless the patient has symptoms. I am now experiencing what may be symptoms and was now told that he wasn't going to order an MRI at this time even though it had been more than a year since the last one and I now am experiencing symptoms (increased).
He did tell me that those who were Her2+ were living longer and that was why there was an increase in those who had brain mets. I also saw another abstract involving a small student that was done (whose results he was not aware of) that said that the increase in brain mets was related to the Her2+.
I believe that he is not ordering the MRI because it might show something that could benefit from focused radiation treatment. The radiation oncologist, whom I saw last year, let me know that they don't do radiation for b.c. patients on 'small' stuff.
The neurologist had told me a year before that the only treatment available to me would be surgery. I am guessing they are waiting until my only option would be either that or WBR.
I told my oncologist that I wanted to find out if there would be any available less invasive treatments and that we were willing to pay for it out-of-pocket if need be. In fact I told him that we have never asked our HMO to pay for anything, we are not out to sue anyone, and if we had wanted to we could have done that from the start. All I want is appropriate diagnosis so that I can get the optimal treatment. He then said I could go ahead and sue him. I again said we were not out to sue anyone just want to get an appropriate diagnosis. He told me he was aware of that but still would not order a test. So, I am trying to find any written information regarding protocol of frequency of MRI for those who have Her2+ b.c.
I am feeling really uneasy about all this and concerned that this new coded diagnosis form (which is both incorrect and missing information) may result in my being wrongly denied 'best' available treatments.

kristen
02-08-2006, 06:32 AM
Dear Concerned.

Is there anyway you can get a second opinion? I think all insurance companies pay for them? I wouldn't waste my time on some oncologist who isn't willing to work with me. I would ask around and see which onc. is open to giving peace of mind to his/her patients and go with that oncologist. There is no time like the present to find one.
Can't your pcp order an MRI? It would seem that they would be able to order you a referral.... I am sorry you are having to deal with someone who is difficult, when you already have enough to deal with. Good Luck.

Unregistered
02-08-2006, 07:02 AM
just to ease your mind, all of my doctors use a billing code for treatment. for example when i went for scans and brain mri it was"r/o secondary neoplasms"
even before this whole cancer thing those codes were always used. i think they are required, and also used for billing. the R.n.'s on this site can confirm.
But even if you go to a new doctor, I would not start any conversations using the words, "if I was going to sue, i would already of sued" This would put off anyone. In this sue happy society , Dr.'s malpractice insurance has almost driven them out of certain states. Just hearing the words "sue you"
is enough to make anyone want to cover there butts. Not getting the brain Mri you requested, is wrong. But as far as I know there is no standing protocal for doing them. If things aren't going good with your doctor, get a new one. Sounds as if you have already made up your mind about the one you have. good luck

Joe
02-08-2006, 09:04 AM
I was going to announce this later, but since the subject came up, will inform you now.

There have been several papers published recently that have frightening implications for women who are HER2 positive:

One is that of women who take Herceptin, 10% of them will develop brain tumors as their initial mathesteses. This is not due to Herceptin but because Herceptin does not cross the blood brain barrier.

The second one states that in general women who are HER2 positive have twice the occurances on brain mets than women who are not. This is just the nature of the beast.

The HER2 Support Group will be attending the ASCO Meeting at Atlanta in June. We will launch a campaign to emphasize better diagnosis and more effective treatment of brain mets for women who are HER2 Positive. Dr. Eric Winer recently has accepted our invitation to join our board of advisors and we will be consulting with him to determine the best approach. We also have Dr. Keith Black and Dr. Michael Badruddoja both experts in neroulogy on our advisory board and will also be requesting their input.

Warmest Regards
Joe

StephN
02-08-2006, 12:21 PM
Hi -
Joe has cited some more recent findings.
The fact that you ARE having some new symptoms is reason enough to get you in for an MRI right away.
The doc you are using is a quack if he has ordered MRI for you in the past and refuses now. He has NO right to refuse treatment or tests. He has sworn the Hypocratic Oath and seems to have forgotten that!
If this is not enough to remind him - don't waste your energy confronting him - just sidestep the guy and get the MRI another way.
Good luck!

eric
02-08-2006, 01:48 PM
I agree with Stephanie. Many docs wait for symptoms before ordering an MRI but most will modify that based on the wish of their patient. I know that changing Onc's might be scary, but not as scary as worrying. Remember...the doc works for you and has a responsibility to you, not the other way around. My wife's doc has agreed to a brain MRI every 6 months in the absence of symptoms. Please don't wait to pressure your doc or find a new one. Catching brain mets earlier can potentially give you more treatment options.

Best of luck with whatever you decide,
Eric

mamacze
02-08-2006, 08:30 PM
Eric and Steph are right...I'd like to add that I would forget the billing codes and focus on what is best for you. Whenever I have a whisper of a symptom (headaches, dizzy, etc) my oncologist orders a brain scan. If your oncologist is not actively in your court it is time to find one that is. You both need to be on the same team! Good luck!
Love Kim from CT