Resveratrol--interpret this article?

[donocco]

VDC

See what you can find. As far as I know the problem lies more with the copper. When a cancerous tumor grows past a certain size (imillion cells?)
It has to form its own blood vessels to survive. This is called angiogenesis.
A number of proteins are involved in angiogenesis (Vascular Endothelial Growth Factor being a main one) and most of these pro-angiogenesis proteins use copper as a cofactor. A Dr Linda Vadhat is treating triple negative breast cancer with copper reduction with some interesting results. Of course I cant say that zinc cant spur cancer growth.

Paul

[VDC]

Hmmm.... This article seems to indicate it may be a ZINC issue and too much zinc favors cancer.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1985767

Also blocking zinc transporters may be beneficial in aggressive forms of breast cancer

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0206102954.htm

Yep, we do NOT want zinc transported!

http://stke.sciencemag.org/content/5/210/ra11

and inhibiting the CK2 seems effective for other cancers

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26919095
http://www.nature.com/cddis/journal/...is201363a.html

CK2 expression is 10 fold higher in breast cancer

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3726451/

I"m on a roll now! Found this little gem as a way to inhibit CK2 (CK2 upregulates transfer of Zn) Coumestrol inhibits CK2 But it also acts as a phytoestrogen, natural compounds that mimic the biological activity of estrogens

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23845105

and it appears red clover is highest in Coumestrol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coumestrol

Now I am more than intrigued!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3726451/

"A specific dietary supplement, selected vegetables (SV), which contains coumestrol, was studied in tumor-bearing mice and in stage IIIB and IV non-small cell lung cancer patients [37]. The study found 53-74% inhibition of tumor growth in mice, but more strikingly, patients in stage IIIB and IV NSCLC who took SV daily for 2–46 months had prolonged survival and attenuation of the normal pattern of progression compared to patients not taking SV [38]."

In case you are wondering the SV in the above quote was the following: 63 mg of inositol hexaphosphate, 4.4 mg of daidzein, 2.6 mg of genistein, and 16 mg of coumestrol

WOW, get a load of this pilot study!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11588907/

[donocco]

VDC

I see your point. I still keep thinking of the highCu/Zn ratio but I may be oversimplifying it. I guess for the time its best not to take a chance with zinc supplementation. Ill do some research over the weekend. I know lowering the copper level to 20% of normal can be beneficial in cancer. Read the wok of Dr. George Brewer.
His idea was to lower copper levels quickly with a copper chelator called Ammonium Tetrathimolybdate 20mg 5 times a day.

Once the copper levels were lowered he planned to keep them down with Zinc 50mg 3 times a day. When you take 50mg Zinc 3 times daily a copper chelating protein called Metalothionine is formed and this prevents dietary copper from being absorbed.

Paul

[VDC]

Fascinating! Here is the study you might be referring to?

http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.or...ent/6/1/1.full

Most interesting.

If I had to guess, I would say there are several factors in play here.

edit: This phase two study wasn't quite a positive, but still statistically relevant
http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.or.../9/5/1666.full

[donocco]

VDC

Yes that is the original study. That is what Im pushing for. The alteration of the copper zinc ratio to me was a start. It tends to be high in most cancers. I see copper as the "bad guy in copper. As zinc intake lowers serum copper I gtend perhaps naively to see zinc as the good guy. Ill research the effect of zinc supplementation in cancer over the weekend. I expect the usual. Some studies will show zinc as beneficial. others as having no real effect and others showing zinc to be harmful. As far as copper goes there is little ambivalence. Lowerin it drastically seems to be beneficial. Look at the work of Linda Vadhat using copper lowering as a treatment for triple negative breast cancer.

Paul

[VDC]

I haven't had a chance to do the research. Being with my dad for his ablation and then flying home has consumed pretty much all my time!

And I"m flying back to Mayo tomorrow for FIVE biopsies ....as a result of that "unnecessary" MRI I demanded. I don't think I will have much time for the next week or so! But when I return home, I will try to give research a whirl and see what I come up with!

But.......I simply am not willing to give up my chocolate! ;-) I read chocolate is high in copper.....but come on, a girl has to be allowed ONE vise?

[donocco]

VDC

I have to be honest with you. The copper reduction demands lowering the serum copper by 80%. You even have to watch the water you drink. Yes cocoa is rich in copper. Dr Brewer used a copper chelator called Ammonium Tetrathiomolybdate. His original plan was to quickly reduce the copper over say a six month period with the Ammonium Tetrathiomolybdate then keep it down with oral zinc salt 50mg elemental zinc three times a day. The zinc causes the intestinal columnar cells to produce a protein called Metallothionein and this protein prevents copper from the diet from being absorbed by the intestine. If you go this route chocolate is no problem as the copper wont be absorbed.

The tetramolybdate salt is not FDA approved. They wanted it approved for the treatment of Wilsons disease, a hereditary disease of copper metabolism. Excess copper is deposited in the liver and brain tissues causing liver damage and Parkinson symptoms. Left untreated it is fatal.

Right now they have pharmacies making these Ammonium Tetrathiomolybdate capsules costing about 6 dollars each. If the drug is FDA approved and made by a say Pfizer it will cost 2000 dollars a capsule considering the potential value of the drug in cancer. I'm not trusting of the FDA. As far as I'm concerned their main purpose is keeping their jobs not "guarding the American Health." This was not a problem when medicine was private. Now that it is insurance conrtolled its a problem. The FDA is controlled by Congress and Congress is controlled by lobbys. We have two opposing lobbys ie drug co and insurance companies and the congressmen want the lobby money from both. Once again the FDA appeases them by approving a drug (drug company happy they can charged what the want) and limiting the drugs use in the FDA approval (this gives the insurance company an out as any use outside FDA approval is called experimental.

A perfect example is the drug Movantik to prevent constipation induced by those taking opiate drugs as cancer patients often have to. One problem-the FDA has approved Movantik for non cancer related opiate induced constipation. In other words the insurance companies wont pay for it if the opiate user is a cancer pt. Look this up. I don't want you to take my word for it. I think this is deliberate but I cant prove it. If I could there is little I could do about it. I'm sorry the FDA has become so politicized but that is the way it seems to be.

Sorry for the speech. I only want to point out that anyone using ammonium Tetrathiomolybdate for copper reduction had better start as soon as possible. Once the idea catches on it will be quickly FDA approved and only for Wilsons disease. Of course speak with your doctor if interested. You need an MDs order to do the blood tests that measure the Ceruloplasmin level. Ceruloplasmin is a copper carrying protein. Also with Ammonium Tetrathiomolybdate copper reduction you have to check for anemia and neutropenia, indications the copper level has dropped too low. Please forgive any misspellings.

Paul

[VDC]

Not a chance my oncologist would be agreeable. She is a "Protocol" gal through and through. ANYTHING outside of standard protocol is a struggle to have her approve....even the MRI was difficult to have her agree to! It took some serious research and sending her the research links to have her consent even to the MRI! Not a chance on earth she would agree to any copper tinkering. While interesting and certainly something I will follow, it is NOT in my future as long as I have this oncologist as my doctor.

I will continue to research it though as it does sound interesting!

On another note, I have been almost pain free (abdominal muscles that are inflamed from a surgery seven years ago) for about a week! This is a new thing for me. I'm not sure I have had this many nearly pain free days in seven years! I'm wondering if it is the pine extract. Only time will tell. Could be coincidence. But.....time will tell.

[VDC]

Ever heard of this?
Scutellaria barbata



Been looking at research and ran across this little herb. There were phase 1 and 1B studies done in human metastatic breast cancer with some limited results. Just curious if anyone has looked further into it?


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

and phase 1B
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20054647

[donocco]

VDC

Ive heard of it. The common name is skullcap or scullcap. They used to use it for nervous diseases like hysteria or epilepsy anxiety etc. Ill see what I can find about cancer

Paul

[VDC]

Yes, that is the stuff! Here is the link to the phase 1 study.

http://www.bzl101.com/Bionovo_Breast..._Treatment.pdf

I have been unable to find the phase 1B study or any additional information! ...and I'm usually pretty good at finding what I want to find! But this one, has me stumped.

[VDC]

This is by FAR the best article I have EVER found on supplements and cancer. The file at the bottom (mmm3) is outstanding!

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...44579X15000887

I also went through and researched what each of the supplements in the mm3 file truly are and in my own file made note of where to find each of these in natural sources such as foods or common supplements. Unfortunately I don't know how to attach a file or I would do so!

Truly an outstanding review of the literature! Download the mmc3 file for reference.

What is missing are dosages of these to be effective......