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Old 10-12-2013, 12:04 PM   #21
R.B.
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

'Lizabeth

I am sure you are aware that "cabbage, broccoli, kale, spinach" are brassicas and so goitrogens.

They are of course healthy, cooking reduces the goitrogenic effect it is said, but it appears does not entirely mitigate the goitrogens, and in some cases makes them more effective (see post below).

But their goitrogenic effect will not generally be a problem if your iodine intake is adequate and goitrogen intake modest; how much iodine is adequate if you are eating loads of goitrogens, and how much goitrogenic food is too much; are questions that needs answering.

(I have just seen a post from somebody who drank a lot of cabbage juice, which "laid them out" and reduced their body temperature; ok anecdotal but flags up that care may be required particularly in those who may have thyroid issues)

Wikipedia lists goitrogens here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goitrogen

Apparently according to Chris Masterjohn some other fruits are also goitrogens http://chriskresser.com/chris-master...disease-part-3

He also mentioned canola oil as a possible goitrogen. I have checked this as a possibility and the oil apparently does contain isothiocyanates so might be. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1152977

The point is that there are lots of healthy foods that happen to be goitrogens; add to that fluoridated and chlorinated water; those who are low in iodine will be much more susceptible to the effects of these goitrogens. The goitrogenic effects of food have been seen in ruminants for example fed too much kale - they start to experience thyroid and other health problems; so these are 'real' rather than hypothetical issues.

Does iodine lower LDL (see Chris Masterjohn link) - it is not something I have looked at but did come across this which is intriguing - a company developing an iodine based mouthwash for oral health found it lowered LDL ! http://online.wsj.com/article/PR-CO-...22-906366.html At least some of the iodine in their product probably will be absorbed which raises a raft of issues I surmise - did improved iodine status effect LDL levels - thought provoking!

Does LDL carry iodine? (along with other vehicles) An old paper suggests it does indeed, on which basis it is possible to postulate on mechanisms by which iodine could conceivably effect LDL uptake rates . . . The delivery to cells of iodine by LDL I suggest opens up thinking about their being a whole raft of as yet unconsidered mechanisms by which iodine plays important roles in cellular function . . .

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Old 10-12-2013, 02:12 PM   #22
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

R.B.

I suspected you were going to come back and point out that the broccoli, kale etc were brassicas. I was aware they had a goitrogenic effect. The folks in the ENERGY study like to demo meals with Kale (and Salmon). It feel obligated to eat it.

An acupuncturist told me that I should cook all my vegetables, not to eat them raw, and it would help me to lose weight. I just accepted it as part of the TCM 8 Principles theory (hot vs cold, excess vs deficient). Now you helped me see the western principle of reducing the goitrogen effect by cooking.

I have never thought of fruits as goitrogens. I stopped using canola oil and switched to olive oil or grape seed oil.

I appreciate the information about the LDL/iodine connection. I'm not familiar and am reading about it with great interest. My new PCM is very focused on lowering cholesterol, and LDLs. I would prefer to use diet to correct health problems. But it is also difficult to decide what to eat or drink. The most effective “diet” I ever did was Michael Thurman’s. I find when I eat grains, breads, pastas – the weight goes on. Lean meats and steamed veggies – the weight comes off.

Until the city added fluoride to the water and a few months later I developed alarming pain in the other breast I didn't pay much attention to iodine. Taking the kelp was a shot in the dark that paid off big time. Thanks heavens for Dr. Google. I take about 225 mcg of iodine daily from an Icelandic Kelp supplement.

Every few years my doctors had run a test for the thyroid and everything was within their norms. I take that as a sign that I was likely deficient in iodine. The Breast Health clinic checked B vitamin levels, but was not familiar with checking iodine levels for mastalgia.

I suppose I should add some ocean wild caught fish to the shopping list . . .
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Old 10-12-2013, 02:32 PM   #23
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

Hi 'Lizabeth

This is the best short written summary I have seen on iodine so far. It is a PDF download.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...53899372,d.ZGU

Clearly a mix of whole veg and fruit is part of a healthy diet and have long been so, which would suggest the issue is lack of iodine and the extra stress of fluoridation, chlorination, and probably others we do not yet know about. There is even a paper that hints coffee may be able to affect thyroid pathways.

Chris Masterjohn muses about 1mg being about right for I presume the those in the US.

The Japanese may today have an intake around 1mg, and their parents more.

Dr Brownstein's and Flechas' work is truly thought provoking.

As previously identified there is no where near the research into iodine that is warranted to answer these questions because it cannot be patented, not withstanding the impact of deficiencies on health !

It is very sad that a major health risk, with very serious long term consequences, that is very largely so easy and cheap to deal with, by appropriate supplementation which is a low risk solution for the vast majority, does not receive the attention it deserves.


Well fermented carbs may allow you some grain based food without the negative weight implications eg porridge with kefir plus a few raisins small amount of apple juice - the fermentation will change a good part of the sugars (carbs) into short fats and other fuel sources, which will not have the same metabolic effects as carbs. You will find some info on fermented foods here http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co.uk/

My outlook is that intake of Omega 6 should be low and some plant based Omega 3 is important eg flax; all but the smallest amount of cold pressed oils should be avoided and particualrly those that are high in Omega 6 - whole foods viz olives will contain more of the plant antioxidants that are arguably the most beneficial part of olive oil - clearly crunching grape seeds is probably not an option and we do not know if the beneficial antioxidants in say grape seed would balance the negatives of too much Omega 6 - the pathways are enormously complex and one or two marker might not tell the whole story

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Old 10-13-2013, 07:50 AM   #24
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

R.B.

Could you translate porridge - is that oatmeal?

The benefit of grape seed oil is that is tolerates cooking temperatures better than olive oil. Health wise Omega 6s? Bummer.
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Old 10-13-2013, 12:20 PM   #25
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

Hi 'Lizbeth

I am sure you knew that and yes I should have explained in a bit more detail; thanks for the question

Yes porridge, a traditional Scottish dish, is oatmeal simply prepared by adding water and heating, but you can try adding other things like quinoa, juice raisins figs to add a bit of sugar for the bacteria, plain live yogurt sauerkraut juice can be used as alternate sources of bacteria. . . mix all in a kilner jar or similar, cover, and put in a warm place to ferment for a couple of day . . . don't fill right to the top as the mixture does ferment and increase in volume, and overflow; cleaning after a spill is best avoided warm and eat . . . yum . . . sort of sour but pleasantly so . . . a little sour cream (more useful bacteria) and a tiny bit of honey on top works well . . . it will keep for quite a while, and you can replenish or restart the mix to suit yourself.


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Old 10-13-2013, 12:31 PM   #26
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

This is an excellent lecture from an impassioned health professional.

The main section on the implications of iodine for the breast may be the place to start to get you attention; it starts at about 4.10 and again at 36.36.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMjKmi12UX0

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Old 10-13-2013, 02:25 PM   #27
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

I seem to find such relevant topics on this site when I am having problems.

I have posted a thread about a contrast dye called Gastrografin about a month ago. I was wondering whether I should drink the solution because I would be "off" for at least a month after a scan, with skin peeling off my hands, tiredness, shakiness, and blood pressure fluctuations. I try to be conscious of what I am ingesting dietary-wise and have known unofficially (by doctors in the non-conventional world) that I have an adrenal issue. Well, my last scan showed a met to the adrenal gland (have posted in another thread about that). I've also noticed my hair, which has just grown back for the second time, is thinning, and there is more in my brush. Now I have found this information http://www.drugs.com/pro/gastrografin.html#s8-it can cause thyroid problems. I am hardly ever tested to see if my electrolytes are balanced-they just check my creatine- and have been on a bone-remodelling pill or bisphosphonate for almost two years-also hard on the kidneys.

I didn't think I was metabolizing the bone-remodelling pills properly and my liver function tests were rising (although my doctors seemed to think that was okay) so asked to have Pamidronate, an IV form, which they gave to me over 1 1/2 hours;protocol is 1 hour but I requested to have it longer because things are such a jolt to my system. I had at least asked for hydration beforehand and felt okay when I went home. The next day, though, I felt like I had been hit by a truck-I could barely move, I felt very thirsty, and VERY anxious and holding my breath all the time. The next day I had a fever. This was two weeks before my scan.

I have also been having my Herceptin infusions in between all this. Last year I landed in the hospital for three days after my first chemo and my next Docetaxel/Herceptin was one week later. They pushed the Herceptin through in 30 min and I had heart palpitations and was given oxygen and steroids, so it was put in my file for me to have Herceptin over one hour but I've still been tired for at least a few days afterward. I have known, through saliva testing, that my low period is from 12-4 in the afternoon so I have asked to have my Herceptin in the morning when I have more energy, but have been told that chemo infusions are more in the morning so I have my treatments in the afternoon around 1 or 1:30. Not anymore, now that they can see I have an adrenal problem my request for 10 a.m. has been granted, although the next one is for 11 a.m.

I often wonder if treatments that are given weekly are more effective because they are at a lower dose and probably the patient is given hydration more regularly, so it is easier on their bodies than every 3 weeks.

In light of what has been happening to my body lately and things being slammed through it at a protocol rate instead of an individual rate, I have delayed my last Pamidronate. I am so angry that we (especially stage IV) are having scan materials that are decimating our adrenals and thyroid and having treatments that our bodies cannot process at the minimum infusion rate. We need these treatments given over the longest possible time to enable our bodies to heal and adjust. How many women are being given treatment after treatment without any regard to protecting our bodies with patience and monitoring. I wish I didn't feel like a protocol, standard of care or time in the chair. I am also not going to ingest that contrast solution anymore-I have had 6 bone/CT scans in the last 2 years.

I'm sure doctors really do care for us and are doing the best they can with the evidence they have, but we are individuals and these methods are affecting our hormones immensely. (dexamethosone is a great one on blood sugar) We are also just one patient in their huge caseload.

I believe that if the conventional medical community doesn't recognize the physical, mental and environmental stresses that are being imposed on our bodies before we are diagnosed and additional stresses during our treatments that are affecting our adrenals, thyroid, and many other hormones, as well as damaging our organs, then a cure will not be found. It is a vicious cycle-stress in some form, I believe, causes the cancer, and ongoing treatments continue the bombardment. We need the treatments, but there has to be more aid by monitoring in terms of diet, lifestyle changes, supplementation, stress reduction to help rebuild our systems. Add to this the fact that we all metabolize in different ways but all basically all given the same dosage for Tamoxifen, Letrozole, and other meds. We are INDIVIDUALS!

Anyway, rant is almost over. What do I do now? Do I take iodine, or have I had an iodine overload from the Gastrografin? My thyroid function hasn't been checked for months, and one pharmacist said to have my T3 and T4 levels checked, but they only did the T3 if that's okay, the T4 isn't run-something like, that, the lab tech explained it to me, a way of the government cutting costs. The same thing with vitamin D testing-it was costing the government too much money so now we have to pay for it ourselves.

Sorry, I should have put this in a separate thread, maybe, but there are parts of my post that pertain to this thread. I'm trying to get ready to meet with a new onc in the larger centre (my regular one is on a research sabbatical) and I feel like I'm getting ready for a court case with my binder, printed out info on studes and from this site, and questions. I don't know what will be recommended for the adrenal met-as usual, I am unusual in terms of my recurrences.
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Dx Age 47 July/09 Stage 2B/3
Left Mast. Aug 09- 1 of 3 positive nodes in axillary dissection (yes only 3)
ER+ 90%, PR+ 20%, HER2+++
4 x AC, 4 x Paclitaxol and H (Neupogen for 7 cycles), Herceptin complete Nov 10
Mar–Apr 2010 25 Rads
Apr 10-Oct 11- Tamoxifen
Oct 11 – 3 cm met to sternum
Oct 11-Letrozole for 3 mths, start Clasteon-bone remodeller
Nov-Dec 11 - Happy 50th Birthday -20 rads to sternum
Jan-April 2012 Taxotere/Herceptin-6 cycles (Neupogen for 5)
Herceptin every 3 weeks-Letrozole added Nov 2012
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Old 10-14-2013, 09:09 AM   #28
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

CarolineC,

I hear your pain. I have always believed the worst thing about cancer (until the very, very advanced stages) is the treatments. Hence, my enthusiastic sharing of clinical trial information.

Gastrografin - I saw your post, and was a bit nervous about having it for my MRI. The lab tested my GFR and if I remember correctly it was 89. I don't see any information about your GFR - was it tested? I did not have issue with the Gastrografin thankfully.

From you posting I see both issues with kidneys, and the liver. Even a lay person can understand that your body has difficulty processing and eliminating toxins and waste products.

What I hear is your frustration with the medical team - but you need to set a boundary on what you accept as a patient. You are paying for a service, and you wouldn't pay for shoddy service in a shop or restaurant, right? Insist on longer infusion times, and hydration if this is what helps you tolerate the treatment. Be polite, but firm. This is what I need, thank you.

I had a very easy going oncologist (the 2nd one, fired the first). He was totally okay with weekly Herceptin. I popped in on Saturday mornings for the infusions and the side effects were minimal.

In Asian healing, thinning hair plus anxiety/fear is a sign of issues with the kidney meridian (which includes more than just the organ), and anger/frustration points to the health of the liver meridian. If you have a chance to try some acupuncture treatments you might find some relief. If you don't like needles try acupressure.

I would not personally just supplement with your medical history. I would seek out the advice of a ND, or at a very minimum try testing for your iodine levels.

With the burden that has been put on your body with the tests and treatments you need to eliminate as many sources of toxins/pesticides/hormones. Now is a good time to eat organic, get plenty of nutrient dense foods, fiber. Water without fluoride, chloride, etc - Penta water is filtered 11 times. Get plenty of fresh air and sunshine. Meditate and feed your mind and emotions positive experiences.

You have more control over your experience then you think. Take charge and communicate. I had the same issues and would get mad at my medical team over how I was being treated. It didn't do me any good, and just made things awkward. Polite, but firm, this is what I need, with a smile.

I understand there are many problems with the mindset of our current medical community. You are completely right, they have not grasped the concept of the INDIVIDUAL. I can't tell you have many times I've heard that statistics show . . . but I'm in the minority with you - my body doesn't metabolize medicines well. I have an allergy list a mile long.

You are always welcome to vent to us - we get it. The frustrations are there. Just keep your eye on the goal, regaining the most health that you can. You deserve it!
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Old 10-16-2013, 04:15 AM   #29
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo


^Ooooooch CarolineC; Please feel free to rant ; each one of these is a mini rant on my part because in outline this is all basic essential wisdom of life that we should learn in school onwards . . .


Cooking of goitrogenic foods

It is often suggested that cooking reduces the goitrogenic effects of foods, and I have seen that stated often and unwisely assumed it to be true: as often the case, the science suggests things are not that simple.

The papers here would suggest the reality is that some foods retain at least some of their effect even in those that have an 'adequate' iodine or were given extra iodine, and that in some instances the goitrogenic effect may even be stronger after cooking; and more scarily that some have very powerful goitrogenic effect in even the likely well nourished.

This abstract suggests we cannot afford to simply ignore goitrogenic effects of foods; unfortunately much more research is as ever needed. Clearly what is reported below may be a particular property of pickled soy, but it does make the point, and maybe explain why it is generally reported that traditional soy foods are generally fermented, which I have often read reduces the goitrogens in soy (but not seen any papers), but others suggest fermentation does not reduce the goitrogenic content (and I still have not found any papers).


"The most powerful evidence of soy's adverse effects on the adult thyroid emerged from a study carried out at the Ishizuki Thyroid Clinic in Japan. Dr. Yoshimochi Ishizuki of Aichi Medical University demonstrated that 30 grams of pickled soybeans per day, given to healthy adult men and women, induced thyroid disruptions in only 30 days. All subjects consumed seaweed daily to
ensure adequate iodine intake." (p 320)

"Soy eaters are at risk for thyroid damage not only because of the goitrogens in soy but also because phytates contribute to zinc deficiency and an "anti-vitamin factor" results in greater needs of the body for vitamin B-12." (pp 322-3)"

http://iodineresearch.com/goitrogens_food_pg1.html

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Old 10-16-2013, 12:09 PM   #30
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

R.B.

Are you looking in my pantry?

I've been taking Lecithin for years, so that is another goitrogen? If I stop taking it my heart rate elevates to tachycardia. I've been trying DMAE to alternate. Is there a better supplement of choline, more than food sources? Or a better way to supplement to increase acetylcholine?

I have been very lazy about supplements lately. I mostly take CoQ10, Lecithin, Kelp and Chromium Picolinate.

I am supposed to be taking a prescription for B1, B6 and Vitamin E - but I've been forgetting to do this. Back to the pantry . . .

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Old 10-16-2013, 03:05 PM   #31
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

This is a thoughtful examination of the issue of crucifers and goitrogens, but not much in the way of papers on fermentation . . . do different bacteria have different effects . . . commercial sauerkraut likely uses only particular bacteria . . . so the jury is still out for me . . .

http://www.westonaprice.org/basics/bearers-of-the-cross

Choline is a whole other topic of great importance and part of the whole story of the transport and supply of Omega 3 and 6 to cells and particularly the brain. . . and a topic I do not know anywhere near what I would like about . . . a thread would help me bring together what I know and force me to fill the gaps . . . one for another day maybe
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Old 10-17-2013, 04:03 AM   #32
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

Nitrates

Another suggestion that I had seen was that nitrate was a 'goitrogen' (used here and elsewhere in the loose sense that it affects thyroid function by inhibiting iodine metabolism in some way).

It appears they are likely goitrogens - and of particular significance in part because they are found in drinking water and so effect large parts of the population.

Logically the effect will be additive or maybe multiply goitrogenic effects of chlorination and fluoridation of water.

Nitrates are also used as food preservatives.

Not to forget organochlorines, and how little we know about the downstream effect of disinfecting foods with chlorine based products, (all those bagged salads, packaged veg fruit etc)

Then we have new foods such as soy products . . . to add to the foods we have long eaten which are goitrogens.

In moderation none of which individually would probably for most be a problem of significance for those with adequate iodine intake, but combined . . .

Disease by a thousand cuts it appears!

Our best intentioned additions to water and foods in our war against bacteria (which does not differentiate between friend and foe) may have tipped the balance all of which argues for a likely greater need of iodine; increased iodine may not be optimal but is surely better than all of the downstream possible consequences of deficiency.




Indian J Physiol Pharmacol. 2005 Jul-Sep;49(3):284-8.
Evaluation of possible goitrogenic and anti-thyroidal effect of nitrate, a potential environmental pollutant.
Mukhopadhyay S, Ghosh D, Chatterjee A, Sinha S, Tripathy S, Chandra AK.
Source

Endocrinology and Reproductive Physiology Laboratory, Department of Physiology, University of Calcutta, University College of Science and Technology, Kolkata.

"The overall results indicated the development of a relative state of functional hypothyroidism with enlarged thyroid after nitrate exposure. This study can explain a part for the persistence of residual goitre in the post-salt iodization phase."

Nitrate intake and the risk of thyroid cancer and thyroid disease.
Ward MH, Kilfoy BA, Weyer PJ, Anderson KE, Folsom AR, Cerhan JR.
Source

Division of Cancer Epidemiology and Genetics, Department of Health and Human Services, National Cancer Institute, National Institutes of Health, Rockville, MD, USA. wardm@mail.nih.gov

BACKGROUND:

Nitrate is a contaminant of drinking water in agricultural areas and is found at high levels in some vegetables. Nitrate competes with uptake of iodide by the thyroid, thus potentially affecting thyroid function.



Increased thyroid volume and frequency of thyroid disorders signs in schoolchildren from nitrate polluted area.
Tajtáková M, Semanová Z, Tomková Z, Szökeová E, Majoros J, Rádiková Z, Seböková E, Klimes I, Langer P.
Source

Clinic of Internal Medicine, Faculty of Medicine, P.J. Safárik University, Trieda SNP 1, 040 66 Kosice, Slovakia.

It was concluded that long-term exposure to high nitrate intake by drinking water and home made meals from local products results in increased thyroid volume and increased frequency of signs of subclinical thyroid disorders (thyroid hypoechogenicity by ultrasound, increased TSH level and positive anti-TPO).


Comments on California’s Draft Public Health Goal for Perchlorate
February 23, 2011

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...AZ-E-vVD_oV2XA

My comments address a failure to account for ubiquitous exposure to
nitrate and thiocyanate, which have the same biological mode of action as
perchlorate, in setting the PHG. Potential perchlorate risks are unlikely to be
distinguishable from the ubiquitous background of other naturally occurring
substances present at much higher exposures that can affect the thyroid via the same biological mode of action as perchlorate, especially nitrate.

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Old 10-25-2013, 09:19 AM   #33
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

There are references to some extremely thought provoking papers on the impact of fluoride in this site called fluoride alert.

Given the potential risks of the combination of increased fluoride intake and low iodine, and the growing apparent list of negative health effects of fluoride especially were iodine is low, including on the most fundamental human health issues such as early development and IQ, versus the only claimed upside possible of lowering of carries in the young (maybe at the expense of more brittle bones ? ? ? etc), I increasingly believe on a risk reward basis that the decision to fluoridate water should now be revisited.


http://fluoridealert.org/studies/thyroid01/

Abstract (I recommend you visit the site and particularly the above section; you too may want to have a silent scream)

"Fluoride Exposure Aggravates the Impact of Iodine Deficiency

A consistent body of animal and human research shows that fluoride exposure worsens the impact of an iodine deficiency. Iodine is the basic building block of the T3 and T4 hormones and thus an adequate iodine intake is essential for the proper functioning of the thyroid gland. When iodine intake is inadequate during infancy and early childhood, the child’s brain can suffer permanent damage, including mental retardation.
Fluoride, Low Iodine, & IQ — Human Studies

In China, researchers have repeatedly found that an iodine deficiency coupled with fluoride exposure produces a significantly more damaging effect on neurological development than iodine deficiency alone. In the first study to investigate the issue, Ren reported that:

“From the results it is evident that disrupted child intellectual development is among the effects on the human body from a harmful environment containing both high fluoride and low iodine, and this disruption is clearly much more serious than the effects of iodine deficiency alone.”
SOURCE: Ren D, et al. (1989). A study of the intellectual ability of 8-14 year-old children in high fluoride, low iodine areas. Chinese Journal of Control of Endemic Diseases 4(4):251 (republished in Fluoride 2008; 41:319-20). [See study]

Since Ren’s study, other research teams have reported the same result. In 1991, a UNICEF-funded study concluded that fluoride levels of just 0.9 ppm (less than the level added to many water supplies for fluoridation) were sufficient to worsen the effects of iodine deficiency. The authors found that, when compared to children with iodine deficiency in a low-fluoride area, the children with iodine deficiency in the 0.9 ppm area had increased TSH levels, reduced T3, reduced intelligence, retarded bone development, and reduced hearing. According to the authors:

“Statistically significant differences existed between these areas, suggesting that a low iodine intake coupled with high fluoride intake exacerbates the central nervous lesions and the somatic developmental disturbance of iodine deficiency.”
SOURCE: Lin Fa-Fu; et al (1991). The relationship of a low-iodine and high-fluoride environment to subclinical cretinism in Xinjiang. Endemic Disease Bulletin 6(2):62-67 (republished in Iodine Deficiency Disorder Newsletter Vol. 7(3):24-25). [See study]" . . . MORE

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Old 10-25-2013, 09:44 AM   #34
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

Another I want to scream (but only do so quietly to myself) or bash my head on the desk moment (which I do not do because it hurts); prompted by a reference to fluoride from coal combustion on the Fluoride Alert web site (see above). Why is somebody not looking in depth at our total fluoride / goitrogen exposure; if this is an issue in China should it not be under active consideration in the western world. If governments were looking at it surely all of these iodine blocking factors would be brought together in one place for assessment and reported on; I have not seen any suggestion that they are. To the contrary those who are better placed than me to know suggest no agency is looking at intake overall; see video link below.

Where we are going to get affordable energy from is a whole other issue; logically finding ways to use less might be a good start.

I wondered how much of an issue is fluoride emission from coal combustion, and was this only something particular to Chinese coal or a more global issue.

Depressingly it appears one way or another humans do absorb significant amounts of airborne fluoride. For those who feel China is a long way a way, it appears the reality is US (and so likely all) coal power plants emit significant amounts of fluoride (or at least did; I need to check if air scrubbing technology has improved ?).

So even those for whatever reason who have chosen to avoid fluoridated water and toothpaste may still be getting a daily dose of fluoride - OK the amount will depend on where you live etc etc! and maybe airborne fluoride alone may? not be an issue but we are back to disease by a thousand cuts and the as yet unassessed in full cumulative effects of fluoridation of water toothpaste, use of fluorine based products in the food chain, chlorination of water, nitrates, perchlorate etc etc etc.

The extent to which higher iodine intake will counter balance a higher fluoride intake is not clear, but the ever growing list of sources of 'goitrogens' including fluoride (water, air and food), chlorination (water and food), nitrates (water and food), toothpaste + perchlorate etc would add to the weight of argument for reexamining how much iodine we need and how to incorporate it into the diet (or even maybe by supplementation).



Fluoride from coal burning emission.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...55123115,d.Yms


RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TOTAL FLUORIDE INTAKE
AND DENTAL FLUOROSIS IN AREAS POLLUTED
BY AIRBORNE FLUORIDE

In fluorosis resulting from consumption of high fluoride (F) levels in drinking water, F enters the human body through the digestive tract. But, in fluorosis induced by airborne F, F enters the human body through both the respiratory and digestive tracts. The latter clearly involves contamination of both water and food by airborne F. The total fluoride intake of a patient with air-pollution-type fluorosis is, thus, the sum of fluoride intake through the respiratory and the digestive tracts.





http://208.109.172.241/f-powerplants.htm



Electric Power Research Institute - Hydrogen Fluoride.

Hydrogen fluoride from power plants is about 84% of all the hydrogen fluoride from human activities released into the air each year in the United States. Almost all hydrogen fluoride from power plants comes from burning coal. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) estimates that U.S. power plants burning coal released about 32,100 tons of hydrogen fluoride into the air in 1994.

Fluoride Pollution from Coal Burning in China Compilation of recent studies, 1990-2001

Recently a huge amount of fluoride in coal has been released into indoor environments by the combustion of coal and fluoride pollution seems to be increasing in some rural areas in China...Since airborne fluoride from the combustion of coal pollutes extensively both the living environment and food, it is necessary to reduce fluoride pollution caused by coal burning. ("Health effects of fluoride pollution caused by coal burning." Sci Total Environ 2001 Apr 23;271(1-3):107-16

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Old 10-25-2013, 10:15 AM   #35
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

Video clip from Fluoride Alert for those who prefer listening to reading.

Thought provoking stuff from a toxicologist.


http://fluoridealert.org/fan-tv/vyvyan-howard/


And a video about our increasing intake . . . (apparently pesticides are a significant source - I have not checked this out - yet)


http://fluoridealert.org/fan-tv/how-...-we-ingesting/

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Old 10-25-2013, 12:10 PM   #36
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

Iodine and eggs (and dairy)

(Eggs are a great food; chickens may not agree, but it appear the eggs and likely the chickens too are not what they once were, so chickens too should be concerned )

Traditionally eggs have been considered a good source of iodine; maybe because chickens concentrate iodine into eggs because it is essential to the development of healthy chicks.

This paper cited previously suggested that eggs may be associated with iodine deficiency in adolescent females in the UK.

http://her2support.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=53928

This puzzelled me for a few moments; maybe we do not feed hens as much fish meal as we used to I pondered, and mentally set the issue to one side.

I had forgotten the obvious that chickens drink water and eat food too, and so like us will be exposed to perchlorate, fluoride, chlorinated water, etc.

Perchlorate is apparently preferred to iodine by the iodine transporter found in the thyroid, reproductive tissues, and lots of other places, and that it would appear may apply to chickens too as chickens that ingest perchlorate concentrate it in their eggs at the expense of iodine/iodide. Did the IQ of the chickens suffer ; maybe that issue was not high on the researchers' agenda .

Our friend nitrate makes a showing too.

Was soy (a potential goitrogen) included in chicken meal; we do not know.

The conclusion was that the perchlorate in eggs did not add to the load in 2280 human individuals, but could goitrogens in chicken feed, and consequent increase in perchlorate and decrease in iodine go some way to explain the finding above that egg intake was related to iodine deficiency ?

And it occurs to me cows eat and drink too, and mammary glands concentrate iodine in milk at least in cows and people. Does perchlorate reduce the iodine content of milk? It appears it has the potential too - Oh dear - and does perchclorate get into milk; it appears it does - The amount may depend on the iodine intake of the cow . . . but it increase with increased perchlorate intake . . . which may not exceed the recommended daily intake maximum on its own . . . but perchlorate is found in water etc etc . . . back to disease by a thousand cuts.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18959414

J Agric Food Chem. 2008 Nov 26;56(22):10709-15. doi: 10.1021/jf8018326.
Perchlorate, nitrate, thiocyanate, and iodide levels in chicken feed, water, and eggs from three farms.
Blount BC, Ozpinar A, Alwis KU, Caudill SP, Gillespie JR.
Source

Division of Laboratory Sciences, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, Georgia 30341, USA. bkb3@cdc.gov
Abstract

Perchlorate is an inhibitor of iodide uptake that is found widely in the environment. Given the potential for perchlorate accumulation during egg formation and the widespread consumption of eggs, it is important to examine eggs as a source of exposure to perchlorate and other potential inhibitors of iodide uptake (nitrate and thiocyanate). This study was conducted to determine potential human exposure to perchlorate from eggs produced by chicken flocks consuming differing amounts of perchlorate. The mean concentrations of perchlorate (7.16 ( 1.99 microg/kg of dry weight), nitrate (2820 ( 2100 microg/kg of dry weight), thiocyanate (574 +/- 433 microg/kg of dry weight), and iodide (2980 ( 1490 microg/kg of dry weight) in eggs (n = 180) from 15 chicken houses on 3 U.S. farms were determined. Chickens secreted into eggs an average of 23% of the perchlorate ingested from feed and water. Perchlorate levels in eggs were positively correlated with perchlorate intake (p < 0.001). Increased intake of perchlorate, nitrate, and thiocyanate was associated with decreased iodide levels in eggs, possibly indicating a competitive transport mechanism, such as sodium-iodide symporter. It was estimated that egg consumption contributes minimal perchlorate (approximately 0.040 microg) compared to the average total intake of approximately 10.5 microg for U.S. adults. Additionally, it was found that egg consumption was not associated with increased perchlorate exposure in 2820 individuals from the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (p value for the difference of least-squares means, pDiff = 0.225). From these findings it was concluded that, although chickens secrete perchlorate in eggs, eggs do not appear to be a significant source of perchlorate exposure for adults in the United States.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...22030273852464

Abstract

These experiments quantitate the relation between amount of perchlorate ingested and radioiodine transferred to milk of the cow when radioiodine is fed daily or after radioiodine administration ceases.

When radioiodine was given daily, graded doses of perchlorate, from 10 to 4,000 mg/day, increased plasma iodine in accord with Y = 88.1 X.052 (Y = % of control value and X is the daily dose of perchlorate in milligrams.) Curves for iodine-125 in milk and ratio of milk to plasma iodine-125 between the limits of 50 and 1,000 mg perchlorate daily were fitted by Y = 794.8 X-.525 and Y = 1,046.5X-.601; these same curves between 10 and 50 mg perchlorate daily were fitted by Y = 85.6 + .37 X and Y = 82.3 + .28 X. Between 1,000 and 4,000 mg perchlorate, these curves had a slope of 0. These data indicate that perchlorate can inhibit the iodide-transfer mechanism of the mammary gland of the cow and that a ratio of milk to iodine of .2 indicates complete blockage of this transfer.

Administration of 1 g of perchlorate daily leads to 55% less radioiodine being transferred to milk after administration of iodine 125 has ceased.

Also see for cows with iodine in feed and on equipment to prevent matitis


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1275600/


Conclusion; Nerds (me et al), cows and chickens may too need more iodine than they used to because of exposure to dietary goitrogens.

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Old 10-26-2013, 02:13 AM   #37
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

Going back to the core issue of this board breast cancer.

There seems to be no easily findable (if any?) work looking at the effect of fluoride or perchlorate intake on breast cancer risk.

There is more work looking at iodine and breast cancer; but not a lot. This paper on iodine is interesting.

Odd bits of research, much of it old (I guess because funding for iodine research is limited - it cannot be patented) strongly suggest it is likely that iodine transporters are not the only mechanisms for the uptake of iodide / iodine so the whole issue of iodine probably has many more layers than we are currently aware of.

Interestingly and in a way unsurprisingly (babies need iodine) the hormones associated with pregnancy and lactation increase iodine transporter activity. A high proportion of breast cancers demonstrate increased iodine uptake; the question is how does low iodine affect the early and later development of BC. The abstract below suggest that iodine is preventative, and that many of those with BC are deficient in iodine and or have enlarged thyroids etc (low iodine is in general terms linked with increase in thyroid size it appears).


Iodine Alters Gene Expression in the MCF7 Breast Cancer Cell Line: Evidence for an Anti-Estrogen Effect of Iodine

http://www.medsci.org/v05p0189.htm

The high rate of breast disease in women with thyroid abnormalities (both dietary and clinical) suggests a correlation between thyroid and breast physiology [1-3]. In addition, women with breast cancer have larger thyroid volumes then controls [2]. Multiple studies suggest that abnormalities in iodine metabolism are the likely link [4-7]. Additionally, the impact of iodine therapy for the maintenance of healthy breast tissue has been reported in both animal [4-7] and clinical studies [8, 9] yet the mechanisms responsible remain unclear.

Iodide (I-) uptake is observed in approximately 80% of breast cancers as well as fibrocystic breast disease and lactating breasts; however, quantitatively, no significant iodide uptake is reported in normal, non-lactating breast tissue [10]. Clinical trials have demonstrated that women with cyclic mastalgia [9] or fibrocystic disease [8] can have symptomatic relief from treatment with molecular iodine (I2). Iodine deficiency, either dietary or pharmacologic, can lead to breast atypia and increased incidence of malignancy in animal models [11]. Furthermore, iodine treatment can reverse dysplasia which results from iodine deficiency [5]. Rat models using N-methyl-N-nitrosourea (NMU) and dimethyl-benz[a]anthracene (DMBA) to induce dysplasia and eventually carcinogenesis have shown that the presence of molecular iodine in the animal's diet can prevent tumor formation; yet, when iodine is removed from the diet, these animals develop tumors at rates comparable to those of control animals [5, 7]. These data suggest that iodine diminishes early cancer progression through an inhibitory effect on cancer initiating cells. . .

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Old 10-26-2013, 03:15 AM   #38
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

Perchlorate intake in rats leads to alteration in breast tissue and earlier breast developmental issues. Yes they are using large amounts but it still demonstrates that iodine uptake is essential to breast health, and perchlorate is a blocker of iodine uptake in the breast so a risk exists from perchlorate we put into the environment, and especially so when combined with the issues of additional blocking fluoride chlorination nitrates food goitrogens etc


Arch Pathol Lab Med. 1979 Nov;103(12):631-4.
Age-related changes resembling fibrocystic disease in iodine-blocked rat breasts.
Krouse TB, Eskin BA, Mobini J.
Abstract

It has been reported that dietary restriction and chemical blockade of iodine causes histopathologic changes in peripubertal female rat breasts. This study extended the age range to include midreproductive life and perimenopausal rats; there is a wider spectrum of structural alterations that are associated with the older breast, with sodium perchlorate as the blocking agent. In 16-week-old rats, breasts showed general increased parenchymal activity and growth, regressing after removal of the block. In 42-week-old rats, breasts showed noticeable calcospherite deposition, intralobular fibrosis, and cystic changes resembling human fibrocystic disease. In 52-week-old rats, breasts exhibited atypical lobules cytologically, papillomatosis, sclerosing adenosis, calcifications, and a lobular transformation of a histologically dysplastic type. It is the older rat that experiments will more closely parallel the human condition.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/167953

Cancer Res. 1975 Sep;35(9):2332-9.
Rat mammary gland atypia produced by iodine blockade with perchlorate.
Eskin BA, Shuman R, Krouse T, Merion JA.
Abstract

Prior published work from our laboratory concluded that there was a need for appropriate metabolic activity of iodine in breast tissue for normal growth and development. Results from studies in rats that were made iodine deficient showed histological changes in the breasts that were atypical and dysplastic. These tissue findings were further affected by the presence of estrogen and thyroxine. These changes parallel the iodine uptake of the tissues, thus representing a difference in the utilization of iodine by the mammary glands. Using an ion blockade agent, sodium perchlorate, breast tissues lacking iodine were evaluated by both endocrine and histological techniques. A dose-response series was completed that showed that perchlorate therapy for 8 weeks at 400 mg/100 ml produced breast blockade by a reduction in iodine uptake of greater than 52% of the control. At these levels, the histological experimentation showed atypia and some pleomorphism of the cells, particularly in the glands of the lobules. Blockade was less effective in estrogen-treated groups. It is especially notable that both histological changes and uptake reduction were greatest in those breasts that had been rendered euthyroid by thyroxine replacement, thus clearly indicating the necessity of iodine itself for maintenance of normal breast development. By this blockade the responses of iodine inadequacy in the breast were shown to cause abnormal tissue changes relative to the percentage of the block obtained.

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Old 10-26-2013, 03:55 AM   #39
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

The information below as to fluoride based pesticides is thought provoking; does anyone know if this is still an issue?

To put things into context a UK dietary survey http://www.food.gov.uk/science/resea...s#.UmuWAlOt_os found the highest fluorine levels were in the fish food group 1.9mg per Kg or 1.9 parts per million (Sorry got that wrong earlier ). Fish is generally regarded as a healthy food and a good source of iodine, which brings us back to the question is iodine deficiency rather than fluoride intake the primary issue (except in very young infants, because it seems breast milk production filters out most fluoride, and what are the implications of that).

(Perchlorate as a blocker may be a particular case as it is reported to be taken up better than iodine, which would explain why it appears to preferentially block iodine uptake; so upping iodine intake may help but not fully negate the effects of perchclorate)

This East African paper http://eurekamag.com/research/003/14...-in-africa.php (PDF can be downloaded free) confirms fish, both fresh and marine, contain significant amounts of fluoride and particularity in the skin, as apparently do some food stuffs there (Is that due to high levels of flouride in soils or water, and what implications does that have for the west; are we increasing soil levels through for example the use of coal, and or using treated water for husbandry or crop irrigation).

This paper looks at more northerly species. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...55123115,d.Yms Fluoride in the fillets is generally modest but again high is skin and bones. So sardines are likely to be a significant source of fluoride. Coastal populations in some countries such as Portugal ate sardines regularly. This paper looking at goiter in Europe says that it was rare in coastal Portuguese populations, http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...55123115,d.Yms which brings us back to iodine, as well maybe as the importance of other marine nutrients including selenium and other minerals - we are back to complex interactions again !

Goiter is common in areas of East Africa, as apparently is fluorosis of the teeth; is this due to iodine deficiency or a high fluoride intake - most likely iodine deficiency I postulate.

The paper reports oyster tissue contained in the order of 240mg of fluorine per Kg! ( I am trying to check this figure as it seems very high - but the general precept still holds as it appears fish are in comparative terms high in fluoride, but also a source of iodine; figures on iodine levels in foods are not easy to find either !) I have not seen goitre or fluorosis being reported as a consequence of regular oyster consumption, or being Inuit, which again brings us back to the question is iodine deficiency the main issue. (Marine food contain iodine, but apart from milk most land based foods contain little iodine)

This report ( I will add the reference tomorrow as I have lost the link) would seem to suggest that western sources of higher levels of fluoride include (or maybe used to?) common foods such as grape juice and cereals, which self evidently are unlikely to contain significant iodine.

Some suggest that in considering whether to fluoridate water we should be mindful of the high levels of fluoride in food. The question also occurs to me how do dental trials looking at fluoride differentiate the effects of fluoride in water and larger ? amounts in food ?

The site below raises the issue of the use of pesticides that contain fluorine. I do not know if they are still in use.


Fluoride residue tolerances approved for food by US EPA as of July 15, 2005.

http://www.fluoridealert.org/wp-cont...july.2005.html

http://fluoridedetective.com/fluorid...uryl-fluoride/

Sulfuryl Fluoride:

Fluoride Fumigated FoodSulfuryl fluoride is a pesticide used to fumigate food warehouses. Kills bugs and rodents dead. Toxic?
Oh heck yeah!!

The EPA classifies it in the most acutely toxic category of pesticides: a restricted use pesticide (1) which means that food products and packaging must be removed from warehouses before they can be fumigated. No food contact allowed. Makes sense, right?

Well all this changed in 2004. Since 2004 sulfuryl fluoride has become widely used ON foods. (I bet Dow Chemical lobbyists earned a fat bonus on this.)

Now EPA allows these fumigations to create fluoride residues of up to 70 ppm fluoride “in or on” all processed foods (except specified foods) and 130 ppm “in or on” wheat!
Fluoride Alert has compiled a list of tolerated fluoride levels in fumigated foods. (5)(6)(7)(8)

Labeling of exposed foods

AND, if that’s not bad enough, no regulations require exposed foods to be labeled accordingly! Consumers have no warning whether a food has been fumigated with sulfuryl fluoride. And since fluoride is flavorless, odorless, and colorless, we are intentionally left totally in the dark on the nature of what we’re eating.

How much is 70 ppm fluoride anyway?

Look at it this way: In January 2011 the CDC lowered the amount of fluoride to be in our drinking water from 1.2 ppm to 0.7 ppm due to health concerns. With that in mind, consider your fresh or frozen dinner vegetables laden with up to 70 ppm of fluoride or the flour in your bread having 130 ppm fluoride. Ouch!!

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Old 10-26-2013, 02:51 PM   #40
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

This video from fluoride alert suggests there have been no blinded randomized trials looking at the benefits of fluoridation of water on tooth decay.

They differentiate topical fluorine application to the teeth from fluoridation of water.

Some strongly question the wisdom of fluoridation.

They suggest studies do not show any clear benefit.



http://fluoridealert.org/fan-tv/benefits/

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