New thinking on Vitamins and Late Stage Cancer

[Bunty]

There's an interesting article around today about vitamins and late stage treatments.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/healt...109-2cgrc.html

My naturopath always stops giving me any immune building herbs whilst on chemo for the same reason as is explained in the article. Because Herceptin works differently to chemo, just wondering if it's still safe to take vitamins such as A C & E while having Hercptin. Anyone have any thoughts or information?

Cheers Marie

[cheery]

Thanks for the article, Marie.

I've always wondered about the use of supplements during chemo, especially for Stage IV as we're likely to be constantly on maintenance chemo.

The irony is, my TCM doc has been giving me TCM herbal prescriptions for immunity building purposes. He's the Head of Oncology in Beijing and says that they've done much research that indicated TCM helps the immune system and this in turn, enhances the effectiveness of the chemo and Herceptin.

[Ellie F]

Thanks Bunty for the post. When I was first diagnosed I watched a podcast by Dr Winer who argued exactly the same thing. He said two important things. Firstly anti oxidants derived from food were probably good even on chemo provided in normal amounts. Secondly that he believed they should not be taken whilst active cancer present as they 'feed' the tumour cells as they are more efficient at utilising nutrients for growth.
What I think is not clear is whether other non vitamins like turmeric are safe. A lot of research suggests benefits.is that because they work in a different way or have a different effect on cell growth. Certainly there is a body of thought that feels they actually down regulate her 2.
Ellie

[IrvineFriend]

I've read that tumeric is recommended for Her2+ BC and can result in cell death. But thanks for the info. about the antioxidants. I've been doing berry smoothies and haven't started chemo yet (becaue berries are high in antioxidants) and thought I was being healthy. But I'm not feeding those Her2+ bad boys anymore until I'm undergoing treatment! Thanks!

http://foodforbreastcancer.com/recommended-foods.php

[yanyan]

Antioxidants might interfere with certain chemo drugs, not all of them though. There have been discussions / debates on use of supplements whist on chemo and i don't think one has the right answer. But i think we are fine taking supplements whist on herceptin or tykerb since they work in a different way then chemo drugs like taxane ect.

[Andrea Barnett Budin]

I just have to jump in here. This new thinking has been around decades. In '95 when I was first dx and still in '98 when I recurred throughout my liver. Only then did I/we discover that I was 80% HER2 +... No one knew to check before.

My integrative oncologist (NYC) gave me a long list of supplements to take. My other 2 very excellent oncs said -- wait, till after chemo. I called my nutritional expert (from Cornell Weill, blah, blah) and he said -- when you're on chemo is when you most need these supplements!

My Inner Voice told me to be brave and go with his advice. I'd read his book in the interim between '95 and '98.

I swear I believe all my many many supplements helped save my life. They kept my energy from utterly disappearing, my heart strong enough to stick with Herceptin for 10 yrs, my immune system fighting off my pleural effusion and my peri-cardial effusion and Heaven knows what else.

To this day I take my multiple supplements 2x a day, every single day without fail.

I am not a medical person. But I believe in supplements and have learned the conventional docs do not. They don't trust them. They in fact fear them. They don't know much about them. They're still waiting for STUDIES to make a definitive decision.

Meanwhile, we need to fight with every tool at our disposal, IMHO.

I meditate, BELIEVE in the power of my thoughts, troll my mind's dialogue and images all day and weed out all the negative toxicity I come across. Needless to say, it is there. Lurking.

You can read my tale below. 4th stage and ever grateful to be NED since '99. Back then I did every 2 mnth then ev 3 mnth scans. Finally I graduated to ev 6 mnths, but still did blood work ev 3 mnths. I get copies of ev report and dutifully and carefully compare line by line to the last.

I learned that my tumor markers can't be trusted. They register normal for a long while. But it was me who discovered my metastasis, noting that my liver enzymes were slightly, ever so slightly, yet a-typical, and I questioned it and then asked for a liver sono.

This is some job staying alive. But no one loves you more than you. I'm just saying...

[jacqueline1102]

My oncologist has been very supportive of my supplements. And coming from the Midwest that says something. I take the following: COQ10, Vitamin D, Calcium, Bitamin B12, Milk Thistle, Cranberry tablets, Glutamine, and a multivitamin. As far as diet, I have been told to eat whatever I want. Veggies, fruit (lots of) so I eat all the berries I want. My treatment team has told me that the truth be told there has not been much research into this topic. I interpret that to mean I am going to do what I believe is best for me.

[Andrea Barnett Budin]

Bravo Jacquie! (I hope my spelling isn't offensive...) Go with what you believe in your heart is right for you. Let your Inner Voice guide you! It will never fail you.

And kudos to your onc. Obviously a rare gem.

One top onc (NY Mt. Sinai, highly respected), who I really like, told me to do what worked for me. He also said he'd written hundreds of papers against supplements.

Two other oncs who I highly respect and feel helped save my life think I am wasting my time and money, but also remain immensely impressed that I keep returning year after year.

And they said, Eat whatever you want too. (However the IBS I seem to have awakened w/chemo says different. So eat what my gut says I can.)

[conomyself]

I took supplements during chemo, including antioxidants, and I did remarkably well.

My onc warned against antioxidants but he knows very little about integrative, so I did my own research and decided to use them.

[jacqueline1102]

Thanks, Andi,

I just have to say you have been one of my heroes on this site and it just warms my heart to have you give me a little shout out on this thread. You are indeed a wise and gracious woman with your support and knowledge.

Cheers,

Jackie (there are so many ways to spell this name. In junio high I spelled it as Jaclyn for awhile because I wanted to be Jaclyn Smith from Charlies Angels.)

[NanaJoni]

I have a friend who is a clinical dietitian - she has problems with using supplements because the manufacturing process for supplements isn't regulated by the FDA so they can differ greatly in compounding and quality from brand to brand. Her feeling is efficacy can't be assessed or measured when there is such a lack of controls in the production process.

[evergreen]

My clinic does not provide green tea as a refreshment, because it has been shown to interfere with some chemos. I started taking it again afterward, and did drink it during herceptin (Sencha variety, shown to have the highest level of its active ingredient).
Most of what I read suggests we should be wary of supplements, as there is not yet hard evidence of their efficacy and because the manufactured product of a substance may not behave in the same way as the natural substance itself. I do take turmeric, omega 3, calcium, D.
At the end of the day, we all need to feel we are doing SOMETHING to help ourselves.

[rhondalea]

You might want to read this:

http://www.integratedhealthclinic.co...hemo-Block.pdf

There are newer studies for individual supplements coming out every day. IMO, the only way to take supplements while receiving oncology drugs is to research each one with the specifc drugs you're taking.

When I started chemo, my cancer center's pharmacists reviewed my supplement list and recommended the discontinuation of several supplements. I was surprised by their choices, so I did some research of my own and discontinued a few more. Recently I read an article in which one of those supplements they had asked me to discontinue was beneficial during chemo. (Unfortunately, even though it was recent, I don't remember which one.)

The one thing I do want to specifically recommend is that if you decide to take B vitamins, it is best to choose a brand that contains methylfolate (Quatrefolic or Metafolin) instead of folic acid. Many people have a wonky gene for folate (MTHFR), and folic acid is unusable for them (so they end up with high blood levels, but to no good effect). There is some evidence that folic acid can cause breast cancer. See here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19336565

My particular MTHFR mutation is somewhat rare, but it causes an increase in breast cancer in women who are 45-55. Unfortunately, most of us have a mutation in this gene, so it's best to avoid trouble.

You might want to check out Sarah Charles' website for information about the foods (and supplements) that are good and bad for breast cancer. I found it very useful as a starting point:

http://foodforbreastcancer.com/

As for the quality of supplements, you can subscribe to:

http://www.consumerlab.com/

The cost is around $30/year, and they present a new report each month. All the old reports are available on the website.

I take 30+ supplements a day. To address those you specifically mention, I take a low dose Vitamin A supplement three times a week (to make up the shortfall evidenced by my food diary). I take 500 mg of Vitamin C. I take no supplemental Vitamin E at all, although I did before cancer. Most of the Vitamin E studies aren't encouraging, and my food diary says I'm getting enough, so I'm content to leave well enough alone.

As I mentioned, I stopped some (those above and other antioxidants) during chemo (ACTH). *When I started Herceptin, I also restarted the discontinued supplements.* I'm more than one year out of chemo and almost five months from my last dose of Herceptin, and so far, I have no evidence of recurrence, so I don't think it's a big leap to the conclusion that the supplements I took did not interfere with treatment.

[Joanne S]

Which fruits and vegetables contain the most pesticides?
http://her2support.org/vbulletin/sho...256#post288256

[europa]

I was told to avoid any antioxidant supplements during chemo and herceptin. I now take Boswelia, Turmeric (with pepper), B6, D, Iron (I have low Iron levels) and ginger (though I have it raw and make tea out of it now instead of popping a pill). My pharmacist told me the best brand is Nature Made because they use a third party to do an additional analysis of all their supplements and have exceeded the governments standards historically. I also know the company that owns the brand and they are very very anal about quality control.

[SoCalGal]

just wanna say I love you andibb :-)

[Jackie07]

I think there's a reason why the article uses the term 'late stage' ...

I think we need to first define 'late stage' before jumping into conclusion...

I think ...