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09-24-2008, 06:56 PM
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#21
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Mountains of Virginia
Posts: 2,267
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Faux,
My radiologist office recommended that I contact Cancercare about travel assistance. I did and they sent a check to help cover travel expenses. There are other areas of assistance they will also address.
www.cancercare.org
We are all here for you.
__________________
Rhonda (Sassy)
dx age 45
DX 2/15/05 Stage IIb (at surgery)restaged IIIa
Left mast .9cm tumor 5 of 14 nodes
Triple Positive
4 DD A/C
12 Taxol/Herceptin
33Rads
Strange infect mast site one year aft surg, hosp 1 wk
Herceptin for total of 18 months
Lupron Monthly 4 yrs
Neurontin for aches, pains and hot flashes(It works!)
Ovaries removed 11/09 stop Lupron and Neurontin
Arimidex 6 yrs (tried Femara, no SE improvement)
Tried Exemestane-hips got so bad could hardly walk
Back to Arimidex for year seven
Zometa 2X Annual for 7years, Lasix
Stop Arimidex 5/13
Stop Zometa 7/13-Bi-lateral Stress Fractures in Femurs from Zometa
5/14 Start Tamoxifen
3/15 Stem cell transplant to stimulate femur bone growth/healing
5/15 Complete fracture of right femur/Titanium rods both femurs
9/16 Start Evista stopTamoxifen
3/17 Stop Evista--unwelcome side effects!
NED and no meds.......
14 YEARS NED!
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09-25-2008, 12:28 AM
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#22
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: LA LA Land
Posts: 1,607
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Brenda-I have known you since April of 2007 and never heard you so fired up! You are channeling ME and I like the new YOU! "She can't move to France" funny but you might have really hurt Sarah Dalton's feelings - she was just ragging on America like everyone else. lol.
Leslie- I hope that some of the numbers listed offer the help you need and deserve. Boy we are a feisty group!
__________________
1996 cancer WTF?! 1.3 cm lumpectomy Er/Pr neg. Her2+ (20nodes NEGATIVE) did CMF + rads. NED.
2002 recurrence. Bilateral mastectomy w/TFL autologous recon. Then ACx2. Skin lymphatic rash. Taxotere w/Herceptin x4. Herceptin/Xeloda. Finally stops spreading.
2003 - Back to surgery, remove skin mets, and will have surgery one week later when pathology can confirm margins.
‘03 latisimus dorsi flap to remove skin mets. CLEAN MARGINS. Continue single agent Herceptin thru 4/04. NED.
‘04 '05 & 06 tiny recurrences - scar line. surgery to cut out. NED each time.
1/2006 Rads again, to scar line. NED.
3/07 Heartbreaking news - mets! lungs.sternum. Try Tykerb/Xeloda. Tykerb/Carbo/Gemzar. Switch Oncs.
12/07 Herceptin.Tykerb. Markers go stable.
2/8/08 gamma knife 13mm stupid brain met.
3/08 Herceptin/tykerb/avastin/zometa.
3/09 brain NED. Lungs STABLE.
4/09 attack sternum (10 daysPHOTONS.5 days ELECTRONS)
9/09 MARKERS normal!
3/10 PET/CT=manubrium intensely metabolically active but stable. NEDhead.
Wash out 5/10 for tdm1 but 6/10 CT STABLE, PET improving. Markers normal. Brain NED. Resume just Herceptin plus ZOMETA
Dec 2010 Brain NED, lungs/sternum stable. markers normal.
MAR 2011 stop Herceptin/allergy! Go back on Tykerb and switch to Xgeva.
May-Aug 2011 Tykerb Herceptin Xgeva.
Sept 2011 Tykerb, Herceptin, Zometa, Avastin.
April 2012 sketchy drug trial in NYC. 6 weeks later I’m NED!
OCT 2012 PET/CT shows a bunch of freakin’ progression. Back to LA and Herceptin.avastin.zometa.
12/20/12 add in PERJETA!
March 2013 – 5 YEARS POST continue HAPZ
APRIL 2013 - 6 yrs stage 4. "FAILED" PETscan on 4/2/13
May 2013: rePetted - improvement in lungs, left adrenal stable, right 6th rib inactive, (must be PERJETA avastin) sternum and L1 fruckin'worsen. Drop zometa. ADD Xgeva. Doc says get rads consultant for L1 and possible biopsy of L1. I say, no thanks, doc. Lets see what xgeva brings to the table first. It's summer.
June-August 2013HAPX Herceptin Avastin Perjeta xgeva.
Sept - now - on chemo hold for calming tummy we hope. Markers stable for 2 months.
Nov 2013 - Herceptin-Perjeta-Avastin-Xgeva (collageneous colitis, which explains tummy probs, added Entocort)
December '13 BRAIN MRI ned in da head.
Jan 2014: CONTINUING on HAPX…
FEB 2014 PetCT clinical “impression”: 1. newbie nodule - SUV 1.5 right apical nodule, mildly hypermetabolic “suggestive” of worsening neoplastic lesion. 2. moderate worsening of the sternum – SUV 5.6 from 3.8
3. increasing sclerosis & decreasing activity of L1 met “suggests” mild healing. (SUV 9.4 v 12.1 in May ‘13)
4. scattered lung nodules, up to 5mm in size = stable, no increased activity
5. other small scattered sclerotic lesions, one in right iliac and one in thoracic vertebral body similar in appearance to L1 without PET activity and not clearly pathologic
APRIL 2014 - 6 YRS POST GAMMA ZAP, 7 YRS MBC & 18 YEARS FROM ORIGINAL DX!
October 2014: hold avastin, continue HPX
Feb 2015 Cancer you lost. NEDHEAD 7 years post gamma zap miracle, 8 years ST4, +19 yrs original diagnosis.
Continue HPX. Adding back Avastin
Nov 2015 pet/ct is mixed result. L1 SUV is worse. Continue Herceptin/avastin/xgeva. Might revisit Perjeta for L1. Meantime going for rads consult for L1
December 2015 - brain stable. Continue Herceptin, Perjeta, Avastin and xgeva.
Jan 2016: 5 days, 20 grays, Rads to L1 and continue on HAPX. I’m trying to "save" TDM1 for next line. Hope the rads work to quiet L1. Sciatic pain extraordinaire :((
Markers drop post rads.
2/24/16 HAP plus X - markers are down
SCIATIC PAIN DEAL BREAKER.
3/23/16 Laminectomy w/coflex implant L4/5. NO MORE SCIATIC PAIN!!! Healing.
APRIL 2016 - 9 YRS MBC
July 2016 - continue HAP plus Xgeva.
DEC 2016 - PETCT: mets to sternum, lungs, L1 still about the same in size and PET activity. Markers not bad. Not making changes if I don't need to. Herceptin/Perjeta/Avastin/Xgeva
APRIL 2017 10 YEARS MBC
December 2017 - Progression - gonna switch it up
FEB 2018 - Kadcyla 3 cycles ---->progression :(
MAY30th - bronchoscopy, w/foundation1 - her2 enriched
Aug 27, 2018 - start clinical trial ZW25
JAN 2019 - ZW25 seems to be keeping me stable
APRIL 2019 - ONE DOZEN YEARS LIVING METASTATIC
MAY 2019 - progression back on herceptin add xeloda
JUNE 2019 - "6 mos average survival" LMD & CNS new single brain met - one zap during 5 days true beam SBRT to cord met
10/30/19 - stable brain and cord. progression lungs and bones. washing out. applying for ds8201a w nivolumab. hope they take me.
12/27/19 - begin ds8401a w nivolumab. after 2nd cycle nodes melt away. after 3rd cycle chest scan shows Improvement, brain MRI shows improvement, resolved areas & nothing new. switch to plain ENHERTU. after 4th cycle, PETscan shows mostly resolved or improved results. Markers near normal. I'm stunned but grateful.
10/26/20 - June 2021 Tucatinib/xeloda/herceptin - stable ish.
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09-25-2008, 02:25 AM
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#23
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: I live in Christmas, MI - located on the shores of Lake Superior.
Posts: 606
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I am sorry to hear you are going through this as well. I hope that you also contact your representatives via the computer to complain. Since health care seems to be a big issue with the presidential campagin coming up....perhaps you can have some influence on these policies!
__________________
Barb
10/03 Radical Mastectomy 3 cm tumor - 1/17 Nodes Stage II B, Her 2 +++ ER-/PR- 11/03 4 AC 4 Taxol 12/05 Stage IV - Lung met , Bone mets - Carbo, Taxotere, Herceptin 9/06 - 2 cm brain tumor 10/06 - Tumor removal surgery - Herceptin Halted 12/06 gamma knife tumor base.1/07 Navelbine/Herceptin 4/07 Rads to R femur 5/07 Stereotactic - new 2 cm brain tumor 4/07 Start Xeloda 5/07 Tykerb added 7/07 Brain MRI clean 10/07 .055 cm brain met found. 12/07 Stereotactic -1 cm brain tumor Start Tykerb 11/07 Abraxane/Herceptin 5/08 Cisplatin, Gemcitabine/Herceptin 6/08 Stereotactic to 1cm 9/08 Stereotactic repeat (growth). 11/08 Pet Scan Good but new tiny met on L lung/dead Brain surgery (no cancer cells found/scar tissue) 1/09 Chemo restarted 2/09 Pet Scan Bad - R larger very active/active L active lymph nodes both sides of chest MRI- mets slight increase 2/09 Start Doxil/Tykerb Treatment
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09-25-2008, 04:45 PM
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#24
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 600
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I found out that my dermatologist from years ago would take medicaid under some circumstances and they fit me in today. He is wonderful. He believes I am having one of the rashes from the Arimidex and I am going to change the time of day I take it and see if the onset of the itching changes. The one that is being controlled by medication appears to be viral. And the other is a type of eczema. I feel better now that I have seen him.
I appreciate the advice from all of you. I always hate to ask because it seems like my problems are so small compared to what so many of you have gone through. I am sure we have all felt like Sarah does. I know I do. I know that b****ing does fix anything but it helps me to know that I am not the only who thinks our system is all screwed up. I will look into everything that was suggested and see what I can work out.
I did find out that this is the last week for my onc's assistant and I am happy about that. She has been really difficult to deal with and I am hoping that her replacement will much easier to deal with. In the meantime I talked with the head nurse there and she was very helpful.
__________________
In the world of destiny, there are no statistics.
Jan. 26- mammogram and ultrasound- suspicious lump
Mid-February- lumpectomy, infiltrating ductal carcinoma ~4.5 cm and a 1 cm DCIS, did not get clear margins, did not check lymph nodes
ER+/PR+, her2 +++, nuclear grade 3 of 3
February 20-PET scan showed something on liver. No biopsy.
March- Started carboplatin, herceptin, taxol on a four week cycle
May 3- Pet scan, with intent to do a biopsy, found nothing, liver or breast- no biopsy because there is nothing to biopsy
June 21- new onc, very concerned that there had been no biopsy,
June 18th-CAT scan, bone scan-negative
August 7th - Brain MRI-negative
August 9th- mastectomy, all pathology negative
January 2008 still NED! New oncologist -herceptin for full year after chemo- until July, and tamoxifen---negative scans since May '07
July 2008-Finished Herceptin!
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09-25-2008, 05:03 PM
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#25
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Central Coast, CA
Posts: 3,207
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Great news, on several fronts it seems. It must feel great to have some answers and a plan of action...and to be relieved of an unhelpful medical support person!
Blessings,
Chris
__________________
Chris in Scotts Valley
June 2002 extensive hi grade DCIS (pre-cancer-stage 0, clean sentinal node) Mastectomy/implant - no chemo, rads. "cured?"
9/2004 Diag: Stage IV extensive liver mets (!) ER/PR- Her2+++
10/04-3/05 Weekly Taxol/Carboplatin/Herceptin , complete response!
04/05 - 4/07 Herception every 3 wks, Continue NED
04/07 - recurrence to liver - 2 spots, starting tykerb/avastin trial
06/07 8/07 10/07 Scans show stable, continue on Tykerb/Avastin
01/08 Progression in liver
02/08 Begin (TDM1) trial
08/08 NED! It's Working! Continue on TDM1
02/09 Continue NED
02/10 Continue NED. 5/10 9/10 Scans NED 10/10 Scans NED
12/10 Scans not clear....4/11 Scans suggest progression 6/11 progression confirmed in liver
07/11 - 11/11 Herceptin/Xeloda -not working:(
12/11 Begin MM302 Phase I trial - bust:(
03/12 3rd times the charm? AKT trial
5/12 Scan shows reduction! 7/12 More reduction!!!!
8/12 Whoops...progression...trying for Perjeta/Herceptin (plus some more nasty chemo!)
9/12 Start Perjeta/Herceptin, chemo on hold due to infection/wound in leg, added on cycle 2 &3
11/12 Poops! progression in liver, Stop Perjeta/Taxo/Herc
11/12 Navelbine/Herce[ptin - try for a 3 cycles, no go.
2/13 Gemzar/Carbo/Herceptin - no go.
3/13 TACE procedure
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09-25-2008, 05:25 PM
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#26
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 600
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Yes it does. I emailed her a couple of days ago to ask if the Arimidex could be causing some nausea I am having. She told me that it never causes nausea. I was so frustrated that I sent her the information on the Arimedex website about it and from the NIH website.
When I finished Herceptin I asked her about getting my port flushed and in front of my husband she told every six to eight weks. I told her that the card that came with my port said every four weeks. Oh no, it doesn't have to be that often. Now she says that she didn't say that. I went ahead and got it flushed every four weeks anyway. I had decided to make sure that I had her put everything she said in writing. I'm just glad she's leaving. I am beginning to think that the problems I have been having with my onc were because of miscommunication with her.
It is good to have some answers. My arm is getting better with the antiviral and that is a good thing. It was like having shingles in the nerves of my arm. Now if I can just get the itching under control I will be great. I had tried to take several art courses at the University this fall and have had to drop two of them. I guess I have been in denial and just wanted everything to be back the way it was. Andi keeps telling me to accept that I will have a new normal but it must just take time. I just wanted to be the energizer bunny again. Well the bunny fell over. My batteries just don't recharge like they used to. I am slowly coming to terms with that. Hopefully before I fall over again.
Leslie
__________________
In the world of destiny, there are no statistics.
Jan. 26- mammogram and ultrasound- suspicious lump
Mid-February- lumpectomy, infiltrating ductal carcinoma ~4.5 cm and a 1 cm DCIS, did not get clear margins, did not check lymph nodes
ER+/PR+, her2 +++, nuclear grade 3 of 3
February 20-PET scan showed something on liver. No biopsy.
March- Started carboplatin, herceptin, taxol on a four week cycle
May 3- Pet scan, with intent to do a biopsy, found nothing, liver or breast- no biopsy because there is nothing to biopsy
June 21- new onc, very concerned that there had been no biopsy,
June 18th-CAT scan, bone scan-negative
August 7th - Brain MRI-negative
August 9th- mastectomy, all pathology negative
January 2008 still NED! New oncologist -herceptin for full year after chemo- until July, and tamoxifen---negative scans since May '07
July 2008-Finished Herceptin!
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09-25-2008, 05:37 PM
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#27
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Morris, IL
Posts: 3,507
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Leslie
I do hope you will look into some of the places Brenda posted about...they make it so damn hard to get help to those who need it most....but don't give up...sometimes I think that is what the insurance companies and agencies want...they hope we will quit if they make it hard....show them you are determined and never give up...there is help out there, you just have to keep calling and asking...if there is anything I can do to help, let me know, although most of us have never met, we truly are family.
__________________
"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
Hugs & Blessings
Sheila
Diagnosed at age 49.99999 2/21/2002 via Mammography (Calcifications)
Core Biopsy 2/22/02
L. Mastectomy 2/25/2002
Stage 1, 0.7cm IDC, Node Neg from 19 nodes Her2+++ ER PR Neg
6/2003 Reconstruction W/ Tissue Expander, Silicone Implant
9/2003 Stage IV with Mets to Supraclavicular nodes
9/2003 Began Herceptin every 3 weeks
3/2006 Xeloda 2500mg/Herceptin for recurrence to neck nodes
3/2007 Added back the Xeloda with Herceptin for continued mets to nodes
5/2007 Taken Off Xeloda, no longer working
6/14/07 Taxol/Herceptin/Avastin
3/26 - 5/28/08 Taxol Holiday Whopeeeeeeeee
5/29 2008 Back on Taxol w Herceptin q 2 weeks
4/2009 Progression on Taxol & Paralyzed L Vocal Cord from Nodes Pressing on Nerve
5/2009 Begin Rx with Navelbine/Herceptin
11/09 Progression on Navelbine
Fought for and started Tykerb/Herceptin...nodes are melting!!!!!
2/2010 Back to Avastin/Herceptin
5/2010 Switched to Metronomic Chemo with Herceptin...Cytoxan and Methotrexate
Pericardial Window Surgery to Drain Pericardial Effusion
7/2010 Back to walking a mile a day...YEAH!!!!
9/2010 Nodes are back with a vengence in neck
Qualified for TDM-1 EAP
10/6/10 Begin my miracle drug, TDM-1
Mixed response, shrinking internal nodes, progression skin mets after 3 treatments
12/6/10 Started Halaven (Eribulen) /Herceptin excellent results in 2 treatments
2/2011 I CELEBRATE my 9 YEAR MARK!!!!!!!!!!!!!
7/5/11 begin Gemzar /Herceptin for node progression
2/8/2012 Gemzar stopped, Continue Herceptin
2/20/2012 Begin Tomo Radiation to Neck Nodes
2/21/2012 I CELEBRATE 10 YEARS
5/12/2012 BeganTaxotere/ Herceptin is my next miracle for new node progression
6/28/12 Stopped Taxotere due to pregression, Started Perjeta/Herceptin
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09-27-2008, 01:34 PM
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#28
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: "Love never fails."
Posts: 5,808
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Where to Find Help - from LBBC's Insight
Leslie,
I just got the fall issue of Insight from LBBC (Living beyond breast cancer) and they printed a good article on health insurance and how to go about getting what we need. [Facing the financial challenge of breast cancer]
http://www.lbbc.org/content/newslett...-2008.asp#s170
They also listed some website addresses and phone #s which are not included in the linked article. Some of them are the familiar names. I am going to type all of them down below:
Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS)
(800) MEDICARE (633-4227) <cms.hhs.gov>
National Breast and Cervical Cancer Early Detection Program (NBCCEDP)
(800) CDC-INFO (232-4636) <cdc.gov/cancer/nbccedp> E-mail: cdcinfo@cdc.gov
Organizations offering free consultation and financial assistance to people with breast cancer:
Partnership for Prescription Assistance
(888)4PPA-NOW (477-2669) <pparx.org>
Patient Access network Foundation
(866)316-PANF (7263) <patientaccessnetwork.org>
Patient Advocate Foundation
(800)532-5274 <patientadvocate.org>
CancerCare
(800)813-HOPE(4673) <cancercare.org/get_help>
Healthwell Foundation
(800)675-8416 www.healthwellfoundation.org
Brenda Mehling Cancer Fund
Fax: (800)878-9184 <bmcf.net>
Cis B. Golder Quality of Life Grant
(610) 645-4567 <lbbc.org/events-list.asp?event_type=OTHER>
Let us know how things are going.
__________________
Jackie07
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2011/06/doctors-letter-patient-newly-diagnosed-cancer.html
http://www.asco.org/ASCOv2/MultiMedi...=114&trackID=2
NICU 4.4 LB
Erythema Nodosum 85
Life-long Central Neurocytoma 4x5x6.5 cm 23 hrs 62090 semi-coma 10 d PT OT ST 30 d
3 Infertility tmts 99 > 3 u. fibroids > Pills
CN 3 GKRS 52301
IDC 1.2 cm Her2 +++ ER 5% R. Lmptmy SLNB+1 71703 6 FEC 33 R Tamoxifen
Recc IIB 2.5 cm Bi-L Mast 61407 2/9 nds PET
6 TCH Cellulitis - Lymphedema - compression sleeve & glove
H w x 4 MUGA 51 D, J 49 M
Diastasis recti
Tamoxifen B. scan
Irrtbl bowel 1'09
Colonoscopy 313
BRCA1 V1247I
hptc hemangioma
Vertigo
GI - > yogurt
hysterectomy/oophorectomy 011410
Exemestane 25 mg tab 102912 ~ 101016 stopped due to r. hip/l.thigh pain after long walk
DEXA 1/13
1-2016 lesions in liver largest 9mm & 1.3 cm onco. says not cancer.
3-11 Appendectomy - visually O.K., a lot of puss. Final path result - not cancer.
Start Vitamin D3 and Calcium supplement （600mg x2)
10-10 Stopped Exemestane due to r. hip/l.thigh pain OKed by Onco 11-08-2016
7-23-2018 9 mm groundglass nodule within the right lower lobe with indolent behavior. Due to possible adenocarcinoma, Recommend annual surveilence.
7-10-2019 CT to check lung nodule.
1-10-2020 8mm stable nodule on R Lung, two 6mm new ones on L Lung, a possible lymph node involvement in inter fissule.
"I WANT TO BE AN OUTRAGEOUS OLD WOMAN WHO NEVER GETS CALLED AN OLD LADY. I WANT TO GET SHARP EDGED & EARTH COLORED, TILL I FADE AWAY FROM PURE JOY." Irene from Tampa
Advocacy is a passion .. not a pastime - Joe
Last edited by Jackie07; 09-27-2008 at 01:49 PM..
Reason: Add info.
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09-27-2008, 05:06 PM
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#29
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: indianapolis, indiana
Posts: 1,544
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i'm glad you're finally seeing some results. i think sometimes they think their jobs are just to make us crazy.
__________________
dxd 9-04, lumpectomy,
st 1, gr 3, er,pr-, her2 +,
2 tac,33 rads,6 cmf
1 yr herceptin,
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09-27-2008, 07:09 PM
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#30
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 600
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I am glad too. I also thankful for all the information you all provided. I am just tired. It wears you down and I just kept thinking that we could manage. I always felt tha someone else needed it more than we do. Everything will get better and we will manage. It is wearing us both down. I will check out all of this.
Leslie
__________________
In the world of destiny, there are no statistics.
Jan. 26- mammogram and ultrasound- suspicious lump
Mid-February- lumpectomy, infiltrating ductal carcinoma ~4.5 cm and a 1 cm DCIS, did not get clear margins, did not check lymph nodes
ER+/PR+, her2 +++, nuclear grade 3 of 3
February 20-PET scan showed something on liver. No biopsy.
March- Started carboplatin, herceptin, taxol on a four week cycle
May 3- Pet scan, with intent to do a biopsy, found nothing, liver or breast- no biopsy because there is nothing to biopsy
June 21- new onc, very concerned that there had been no biopsy,
June 18th-CAT scan, bone scan-negative
August 7th - Brain MRI-negative
August 9th- mastectomy, all pathology negative
January 2008 still NED! New oncologist -herceptin for full year after chemo- until July, and tamoxifen---negative scans since May '07
July 2008-Finished Herceptin!
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09-27-2008, 10:43 PM
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#31
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Mountains of Virginia
Posts: 2,267
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Faux,
There probably are people who "need it more". But that doesn't mean that you don't need and deserve assistance. I hope that things start going your way soon.
__________________
Rhonda (Sassy)
dx age 45
DX 2/15/05 Stage IIb (at surgery)restaged IIIa
Left mast .9cm tumor 5 of 14 nodes
Triple Positive
4 DD A/C
12 Taxol/Herceptin
33Rads
Strange infect mast site one year aft surg, hosp 1 wk
Herceptin for total of 18 months
Lupron Monthly 4 yrs
Neurontin for aches, pains and hot flashes(It works!)
Ovaries removed 11/09 stop Lupron and Neurontin
Arimidex 6 yrs (tried Femara, no SE improvement)
Tried Exemestane-hips got so bad could hardly walk
Back to Arimidex for year seven
Zometa 2X Annual for 7years, Lasix
Stop Arimidex 5/13
Stop Zometa 7/13-Bi-lateral Stress Fractures in Femurs from Zometa
5/14 Start Tamoxifen
3/15 Stem cell transplant to stimulate femur bone growth/healing
5/15 Complete fracture of right femur/Titanium rods both femurs
9/16 Start Evista stopTamoxifen
3/17 Stop Evista--unwelcome side effects!
NED and no meds.......
14YEARS NED!
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