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Old 09-20-2008, 02:47 PM   #1
whynow?
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Anyone heard of subcutaneous fibrous scar tissue?

I have what is best described as two cords running underneath my skin directly from beneath my left breast over my ribcage and into my abdomen beneath my ribs. My Oncologist (also my radiotherapist) said this was scar tissue as a result of my lumpectomy. Interestingly my Breast Surgeon tells me it is subcutaneous (direct intepretation "under the skin") fibrous tissue and is scarring as a result of radiotherapy!!! He also said he hadn't seen it show up, either this long after treatment or as low down as it is.
The thing is it is sore and is getting worse. I am now booked in the have the cording 'snipped' next Wednesday. I am a bit worried though as I am getting a similar stretching soreness in my back on my left side a little lower than my breast. I also can't find anything on this either here or anywhere on the internet. Has anyone any experince of this?
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Dx 04/09/06 aged 37 (just... by days) at 37 weeks pregnant. Christian delivered 2 days later by CS 06/09/06 healthy (Thank God) at 6lb 14 oz at 37 weeks & 5 days. Lumpectomy 13/09/06 - Left breast - DCIS 16mm, IDC 9mm, Stage 1, Grade 3 HER2 + (FSH), ER-/PR-, 0/14 glands - no vascular invasion.
Oct 06 - Jan 07 Epirubicin
Jan 07 - Apr 07 CMF
May 07 15 rads + 2 boosters
May 07 - Apr 08 Herceptin 3 weekly
Oct 07 1 year Mammo /PET CT - Clear
May 08 - Completed 18 Herceptin
July 08 - PET CT Scan shows "no sinister features and no signs of active disease"
Sept. 08 = 2 yr mammo & Ultrasound - Clear
Mar. 09 = PET CT - Clear
Sept. 09 = 3 yr mammo & Ultrasound - Clear (Ca 15-3 markers remain consistently escalated between 60 & 80!)
Sept. 10 +4 yr mammo & ultrasound - Clear
Aug 11 = PET CT - 5 yrs Clear - NED & celebrating
Aug 12 = mammogram & ultrasound clear....6 years clear
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Old 09-20-2008, 05:18 PM   #2
Lani
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no personal experience, but there are multiple reports in the

literature citing the combination of trental (pentoxyfilline) and vitamin E as helpful for post-radiation fibrosis, even when given long after the radiation was given and even when given long after the fibrosis developed.

Anyway you could give the combination a trial to see if it worked before opting for surgery? Surgery usually causes scarring of its own and after radiation is given to an area, and after surgery disturbs an area its blood supply may be diminished, which also may contribute to the tendency to heal with more rather than less scar tissue, as I understand it.

I will post the abstracts for a couple of the articles--the same combination seems to help with radiation for head and neck cancer, which is where I first became aware of it (reading to help someone with a parotid tumor)

I personally know of two people who have done exceptionally well on the combination,
with minimal scarring after either very superficial (electron-beam) or very "dose-dense" ie accelerated course with big fractions, radiation therapy.
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Old 09-20-2008, 05:39 PM   #3
Lani
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some references

J Clin Oncol. 2003 Jul 1;21(13):2545-50. Links
Randomized, placebo-controlled trial of combined pentoxifylline and tocopherol for regression of superficial radiation-induced fibrosis.

Delanian S, Porcher R, Balla-Mekias S, Lefaix JL.
Service d'Oncologie-Radiothérapie, Hôpital Saint Louis 1, Paris, France. sylvie.delanian@sls.ap-hop-paris.fr
PURPOSE: Radiation-induced fibrosis (RIF) is a rare morbid complication of radiotherapy, without an established method of management. RIF treatment with a combination of pentoxifylline (PTX) and alpha-tocopherol (vitamin E; Vit E) was recently prompted by the good results of a clinical trial and an animal study. The present double-blind, placebo-controlled, monocentric study was designed to assess the efficacy of this combination in treating RIF sequelae. PATIENTS AND METHODS: Twenty-four eligible women with 29 RIF areas involving the skin and underlying tissues were enrolled from December 1998 to April 2000. These patients, previously irradiated for breast cancer, were randomly assigned to four balanced treatment groups: (A) 800 mg/d of PTX and 1,000 U/d of Vit E; (B) PTX plus placebo; (C) placebo plus Vit E; and (D) placebo-placebo. The main end point measure was the relative regression of measurable RIF surface after 6 months of treatment. Assessment was completed by depth (with ultrasonography) and associated symptom measures. RESULTS: Twenty-two patients with 27 RIF areas were analyzed at 6 months. Mean RIF surface regression was significant with combined PTX/Vit E versus double placebo (60% +/- 10% v 43% +/- 17%; P =.038). The median slope for the speed of RIF surface area and volume regression was significantly higher for group A than groups B, C, and D. All treatments were well tolerated. CONCLUSION: Six months' treatment of combined PTX/Vit E can significantly reduce superficial RIF. Synergism between PTX and Vit E is likely, as treatment with each drug alone is ineffective, but these results require confirmation in larger series.
PMID: 12829674 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


1: Int J Radiat Oncol Biol Phys. 1999 Mar 1;43(4):839-47. Links
Striking regression of subcutaneous fibrosis induced by high doses of gamma rays using a combination of pentoxifylline and alpha-tocopherol: an experimental study.

Lefaix JL, Delanian S, Vozenin MC, Leplat JJ, Tricaud Y, Martin M.
CEA - DSV - DRR- Laboratoire de Radiobiologie et d'Etude du Génome, CEA-Saclay, Gif sur Yvette, France.
PURPOSE: To establish a successful treatment of subcutaneous fibrosis developing after high doses of gamma rays, suitable for use in clinical practice. METHODS AND MATERIALS: We used an animal model of acute localized gamma irradiation simulating accidental overexposure in humans. Three groups of 5 Large White pigs were irradiated using a collimated 192Ir source to deliver a single dose of 160 Gy onto the skin surface (100%) of the outer side of the thigh. A well-defined block of necrosis developed within a few weeks which had healed after 26 weeks to leave a block of subcutaneous fibrosis involving skin and skeletal muscle. One experimental group of 5 pigs was dosed orally for 26 weeks starting 26 weeks after irradiation with 1600 mg/120 kg body weight of pentoxifylline (PTX) included in the reconstituted food during its fabrication, and another group of 5 was dosed orally for the same period with a daily dose of 1600 mg/120 kg body weight of PTX combined with 2000 IU/120 kg body weight of alpha-tocopherol. Five irradiated control pigs were given normal food only. Animals were assessed for changes in the density of the palpated fibrotic block and in the dimensions of the projected cutaneous surface. Depth of scar tissue was determined by ultrasound. Physical and sonographic findings were confirmed by autopsy 26 weeks after treatment started. The density, length, width, and depth of the block of fibrotic scar tissue, and the areas and volume of its projected cutaneous surface, were compared before treatment, 6 and 13 weeks thereafter, and at 26 weeks. RESULTS: The experimental animals exhibited no change in behavior and no abnormal clinical or anatomic signs. No modifications were observed in the block of fibrotic scar tissue of pigs dosed with PTX alone. However, significant softening and shrinking of this block were noted in the pigs dosed with PTX + alpha-tocopherol 13 weeks after treatment started and at autopsy, when mean regression was approximately 30% for length, approximately 50% for width and depth, and approximately 70% for area and volume. Histologic examination showed completely normal muscle and subcutaneous tissue surrounding the residual scar tissue. The 50% decrease in the linear dimensions of the scar tissue, were comparable to the results obtained in our previous clinical studies, and were highly significant compared to the clinical and autopsy results for the controls. Histologic examination of the residual scar tissue revealed tissue which was more homogenous and less cellular and inflammatory than in control and PTX-dosed pigs. The tissular and cellular immunolocalization of tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNFalpha) was similar in the residual fibrotic tissues of all three groups of pigs, whereas the immunostaining of transforming growth factor beta-1(TGFbeta-1) diminished much more in the residual fibrotic scar tissue of the PTX + alpha-tocopherol-dosed pigs than in the two other groups. CONCLUSIONS: The present results showed a striking regression of the subcutaneous fibrotic scar tissue that develops as a consequence of high doses of gamma rays.
PMID: 10098440 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

...


Links
Striking regression of chronic radiotherapy damage in a clinical trial of combined pentoxifylline and tocopherol.

Delanian S, Balla-Mekias S, Lefaix JL.
Service d'Oncologie-Radiothérapie, Hôpital Saint-Louis, Paris, France. delanian@chu-stlouis.fr
PURPOSE: Radiation-induced fibrosis (RIF) remains the most morbid complication of radiotherapy because of the absence of spontaneous regression and the difficulty of patient management. RIF treatment with combined pentoxifylline (PTX) and tocopherol (Vit E) was prompted by recent advances in cellular and molecular biology that have improved researchers' understanding of radiation-induced late-injury mechanisms and by the excellent results from our previous human and animal studies. PATIENTS AND METHODS: Forty-three patients (mean [+/- SD] age, 59 +/- 10 years) presenting with 50 symptomatic RIF areas involving the skin and underlying tissues were treated from April 1995 to September 1997. Patients had had radiotherapy for head and neck or breast cancer a mean period of 8.5 +/- 6.5 years previously. RIF developed in the first year after irradiation and gradually worsened, without spontaneous regression. The mean measurable surface area of RIF ([S]) at the time of this study ([S(0)]) was 42 +/- 34 cm(2). The initial Subjective Objective Medical management and Analytic (SOMA) injury evaluation score was 13.2 +/- 5.9 and included evidence of edema, plexitis, restricted movement, and local inflammatory signs. A combination of PTX (800 mg/d) and Vit E (1,000 IU/d) was administered orally for at least 6 months. RESULTS: Treatment was well tolerated. All assessable injuries exhibited continuous clinical regression and functional improvement. Mean RIF surface area and SOMA scores improved significantly (P <.0001) at 3 months ([S(3)], -39%; [SOMA(3)], -22%), 6 months ([S(6)], -53%; [SOMA(6)], -35%), and 12 months ([S(12)], -66%; [SOMA(12)], -48%), and mean linear dimensions ([D]) diminished from the start of the study ([D(0)], 6.5 +/- 2.5 cm) to the end of treatment 12 months later ([D(12)], 4 +/- 2 cm). At the time of the treatment, we did not attempt to achieve the maximum effect, and the study was continued. CONCLUSION: The PTX-Vit E combination reversed human chronic radiotherapy damage and, because no other treatment is presently available for RIF, should be considered as a therapeutic measures PMID: 10506631

: J Clin Oncol. 2005 Dec 1;23(34):8570-9. Epub 2005 Oct 31. Links
Comment in:
J Clin Oncol. 2005 Dec 1;23(34):8551-2.
Kinetics of response to long-term treatment combining pentoxifylline and tocopherol in patients with superficial radiation-induced fibrosis.

Delanian S, Porcher R, Rudant J, Lefaix JL.
Service d'Oncologie-Radiothérapie, Hôpital Saint-Louis, 1 Ave Claude Vellefaux, 75010 Paris, France. sylvie.delanian@sls.ap-hop-paris.fr
PURPOSE: Significant regression of radiation (RT) -induced fibrosis (RIF) has been achieved after treatment combining pentoxifylline (PTX) and alpha-tocopherol (vitE). In this study, we focus on the maximum response, how long it takes to achieve response, and changes after treatment discontinuation. PATIENTS AND METHODS: Measurable superficial RIF was assessed in patients treated by RT for breast cancer in a long-treatment (24 to 48 months) PTX-vitE (LPE) group of 37 patients (47 RIFs) and in a short-treatment (6 to 12 months) PTX-vitE (SPE) group of seven patients (eight RIFs). Between April 1995 and April 2000, women were treated with a daily combination of PTX (800 mg) and VitE (1,000 IU). RESULTS: Combined PTX-vitE was continuously effective and resulted in exponential RIF surface area regression (-46% for LPE and -68% for SPE at 6 months, -58% for LPE and -69% for SPE at 12 months, -63% for LPE and -62% for SPE at 18 months, and -68% for LPE at 24 and 36 months). The mean estimated maximal treatment effect was 68% RIF surface area regression. The mean time to this effect was 24 months and was shorter (16 months) in more recent RIF (< 6 years since RT) than in older RIF (28 months; P = .0003). Symptom severity (Subjective Objective Medical Management and Analytic Evaluation score) was halved in both groups. After treatment discontinuation, mean RIF surface area at 1 year had increased by +40% in the SPE group (rebound) and +8.5% in the LPE group. CONCLUSION: Under combined PTX-vitE treatment, RIF regression was exponential, with a two-thirds maximum response after a mean of 2 years. There was a risk of a rebound effect if treatment was too short. Long treatment (>/= 3 years) is recommended in patients with severe RIF.
PMID: 16260695 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Related Articles
Randomized, placebo-controlled trial of combined pentoxifylline and tocopherol for regression of superficial radiation-induced fibrosis.
[J Clin Oncol. 2003]
The irreversibility of radiation-induced fibrosis: fact or folklore?
[J Clin Oncol. 2005]»
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Old 09-20-2008, 05:41 PM   #4
Lani
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more references

Role of pentoxifylline and vitamin E in attenuation of radiation-induced fibrosis.
Chiao TB, Lee AJ.
Veterans Affairs (VA) Medical Center, San Francisco, CA 94121-1545, USA. teresa.chiao@med.va.gov
OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the use of pentoxifylline and vitamin E as monotherapy and in combination for the treatment of radiation-induced fibrosis (RIF). DATA SOURCES: Literature retrieval was performed through MEDLINE (1966-March 2004) using the terms vitamin E, alpha-tocopherol, pentoxifylline, radiation-induced fibrosis, and radiation injury. DATA SYNTHESIS: Few treatments exist for managing RIF of soft tissues. Due to its antioxidant properties, vitamin E may reduce the oxidative damage induced by radiation. The precise mechanism of action for pentoxifylline in management of RIF remains unclear. Uncontrolled studies evaluating vitamin E or pentoxifylline as monotherapy in RIF have shown modest improvement in clinical regression of fibrosis. However, controlled data are needed to verify these benefits. Studies involving pentoxifylline plus vitamin E demonstrated regression in RIF. The combination was more effective than placebo and may be superior to monotherapy with either agent. Adverse effects were rarely reported in the studies and consisted mainly of gastrointestinal and nervous system effects. CONCLUSIONS: Overall, pentoxifylline is well tolerated and is one of the few commercially available drugs with clinical data for management of RIF. Despite a lack of large, well-designed clinical trials, pentoxifylline plus vitamin E should be considered as an option in patients with symptomatic RIF PMID: 15701781
^^^^^^^^
: Br J Radiol. 1998 Aug;71(848):892-4.
Links
Striking regression of radiation-induced fibrosis by a combination of pentoxifylline and tocopherol.

Delanian S.
Service d'Oncologie-Radiothérapie, Hôpital Saint-Louis, Paris, France.
Radiation-induced fibrosis (RIF) is a terminal sequela to irradiation that does not regress spontaneously. A preliminary study of a combination of pentoxifylline (PTX) and tocopherol (vit-E) has shown clinical activity with 50% superficial RIF regression at 6 months in half of the patients studied. The present report is of a 67-year-old woman presenting with bulky cervicothoracic RIF who, 10 years previously, had received radiochemotherapy for a small cell thyroid carcinoma to a dose of 50 Gy, with severe acute side-effects. She had palpable cervicosternal fibrosis measuring 10 x 8 cm, with local inflammatory signs and functional consequences (cough, restricted cervical movement, dyspnoea and bronchitis) with a SOMA scale for grading the long-term side effects of radiation therapy of 19/14. CT showed deep RIF extending from the vocal cords to the carina, with laryngotracheal compression but without cancer recurrence. PTX (800 mg d-1) and vit-E (1000 U d-1), orally administered daily for 18 months, were well tolerated. The patient exhibited clinical regression and functional improvement. The linear dimensions and SOMA scale were, respectively, 8 x 6 cm and 11 at 6 months; 4 x 4 cm and 7 at 12 months; and complete response with no measurable RIF and 1 at 18 months. This is the first time that the combination of PTX and vit-E has had a significant antifibrotic effect by completely reversing deep RIF as shown by CT scan normalization.
PMID: 9828807 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

The last article is available in full free online

hope this helps!!
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Old 09-20-2008, 07:51 PM   #5
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Whynow?

I have to tell you, I simply adore your avatar!!! That has really made me laugh.

Precious children!!

I can not give any advise, but I would look into Lani suggestion before doing more surgery. Thanks Lani for your information, that is something most of us would need to look into.
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er, pr-, Her2+++
Stage 2b, grade 3
negative nodes
4 rounds AC
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Finish Herceptin May 2007
35 rounds of Radiation
Reconstruction completed Dec 2007
Implant replaced due to infection Mar 2008
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Old 09-21-2008, 02:23 PM   #6
whynow?
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Thank you all. Lani, I have just emailed the research information to my consultant asking him to comment ahead of Wednesday. I'll let you know how I get on... Thankyou again
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Dx 04/09/06 aged 37 (just... by days) at 37 weeks pregnant. Christian delivered 2 days later by CS 06/09/06 healthy (Thank God) at 6lb 14 oz at 37 weeks & 5 days. Lumpectomy 13/09/06 - Left breast - DCIS 16mm, IDC 9mm, Stage 1, Grade 3 HER2 + (FSH), ER-/PR-, 0/14 glands - no vascular invasion.
Oct 06 - Jan 07 Epirubicin
Jan 07 - Apr 07 CMF
May 07 15 rads + 2 boosters
May 07 - Apr 08 Herceptin 3 weekly
Oct 07 1 year Mammo /PET CT - Clear
May 08 - Completed 18 Herceptin
July 08 - PET CT Scan shows "no sinister features and no signs of active disease"
Sept. 08 = 2 yr mammo & Ultrasound - Clear
Mar. 09 = PET CT - Clear
Sept. 09 = 3 yr mammo & Ultrasound - Clear (Ca 15-3 markers remain consistently escalated between 60 & 80!)
Sept. 10 +4 yr mammo & ultrasound - Clear
Aug 11 = PET CT - 5 yrs Clear - NED & celebrating
Aug 12 = mammogram & ultrasound clear....6 years clear
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Old 09-21-2008, 05:07 PM   #7
kcherub
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Hey!

Can you tell me how they diagnosed this? I ran across this a few weeks ago, and by looking online, it sounds a lot like my problem! They said I had chondrocostitis, but that is usually just in the sternum area. My pain is all around the area. I do have some built up scar tissue that showed up on US.

Thank you and good luck!
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Old 09-24-2008, 08:22 PM   #8
Ruth T
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I had some similar "cording" under my left breast about half a year after lumpectomy and mammosite radiation.It was very evident when I raised my left arm overhead and was very difficult to feel when lying down. My surgeon called it mondors (?) and didn't seem very concerned.
I also had the pain around my left side and back. I did go to Physical therapy and it did eventually feel much better.
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