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Old 11-02-2013, 03:16 PM   #61
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

There is regular mention in literature on iodine of endemic coastal goitre in areas of high seaweed consumption.

I have finally found a paper, as against mentions of the issue. The paper is titled

Hoji Suzuki, Tadashi Higuchi, Kunio Sawa,
Sachiya Ohtaki and Yoshihiko Horiuchi.

The full version of the paper includes a photo of a patient with an 'enormous' goitre; this was a real and serious issue. Urinary excretion of over 20mg a day of iodine was seen in five patients. Kelp collection was a local industry, and it formed a significant part of the diet. As discussed kelp often contains large amounts of iodine.

Interestingly when they were taken into hospital and put on a low thyroid diet some patients had a regression of their goitre.

The paper seems to suggest that iodine was actively being taken up by the thyroid, so uptake by the transporters was not the issue.

But 74.5% responded to thyroid treatment - so it looks as if something was blocking the activity of the thyroid; the thought occurred was that too much iodine as is generally suggested or something else . . .

All of which raises some important questions as to high iodine supplementation protocols, especially when reports of negative effects of high intake of iodine are limited in number. Are the negative effects of high iodine under reported or was the goitre in this instance due to to other factors? Does high iodine lead to serious thyroid dysfunction and goitre. These are very fundamental questions.

The answer to this question may lie in the unexamined issue that Hokkaido is an island with active 'volcanic' activity, and it is reported that the fumaroles are a source of both significant fluoride emissions, and fluoride deposits. Were the local water supplies, or supplies / wells / springs of individual patients high in fluorine, whereas in contrast was the hospital on a different supply?

A paper cited earlier in this thread suggests that relatively modest amounts of fouride even in the presence of iodine at 1mg/l in the water can cause fluorosis and goitre.

The Island of Hokkaido is listed as a high fluoride area (viz over 1.5mg/l), in a report called;

Fluoride in groundwater:
Probability of occurrence of excessive concentration on global scale

which cites this paper looking at volcanic fumerole activity on Hokkaido (one the most active regions in Japan) which says interalia

Acid alteration in the fumarolic environment of Usu volcano,
Hokkaido, Japan
F. Africano*, A. Bernard

The fumarolic environment studied is very rich in
fluorine. Whole rock fluorine contents range from 1 to
5 wt%. Aluminum fluorides, which are rare in nature,
are commonly observed in this fumarolic environment.
In the presence of fluorine and in acidic conditions,
the dominant aqueous Al species are fluoride
complexes, even in the presence of significant
amounts of sulfates in solution. Fluorine enrichment
in the altered silicates and in silica incrustations indicates
that fluorine plays an important role in the alteration
of the primary minerals and in the mobilization of
silica into the aqueous phase.

I surmise this could lead to high amounts of fluoride in water, which might be localised. Interestingly I could not find anything on flourosis and Hokkaido. Is or was fluorosis a problem in Hokkaido?

A combination of a diet high in marine products and volcanic activity would suggest a better than average mineral intake. I wonder if high mineral availability is protective against fluorosis.

There is no information about selenium, and apparently kelp whilst containing some selenium is not a good source, but apparently volcanoes are a significant source of selenium

It appears that goitre is not seen in all coastal Japanese communities, which would add further weight to the possibility the high fluoride rather than iodine was responsible for the goitre.

This appears to be a community that ate marine foods, seaweed, was in area that was likely to be well mineralised, probably had adequate selenium intake, and yet there was a high level of goitre. Volcanic areas are often associated with goitre so could fluoride be the cause even in a generally well nourished community. Might there be other possible contributory factors.

Might mercury have had a contributory role in the goitre incidence? Mercury poisoning in cattle in 1955 from seed treated with mercury fungicide. http://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/110001075913 The goitre paper was written in 1965. Cranes local to Hokkaido were severely mercury contaminated. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17713219Mercury Mercury deposits are found under northeastern Hokkaido.http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/200.../#.UnV7t1N2FPI http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17713219 Mercury contamination of seafood in Japan reported as being at worrying levels.http://www.opsociety.org/issues/mercury-in-seafood Fumaroles may be a source of some mercury. Mercury contamination has been linked with thyroid dysfunction.

All of which raises very many questions, and most worrying of all, is fluoride sufficiently active in certain as yet unquantified circumstances to override even the effects of relatively high intakes of iodine ?

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Old 11-03-2013, 05:39 AM   #62
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

More on the debate as to the requirements of humans for iodine; a paper I have just come across by Abraham whose later writing tends to be acerbic. He appears frustrated at the unwillingness of the wider medical establishment to engage with / consider the issue of iodine, and understandably so if he is right. Indeed the evidence increasingly seems to point to a greater need for iodine than is recognised in current dietary guidelines. Deficits will be exacerbated by the increasing impact of iodine blockers. The varied evidence of Japanese intake all points to intakes greater than 1mg a day and probably higher; the health of the Japanese would suggest that such intake levels are not inherently harmful and may confer significant health benefits.

I am aware that the UK advisory body is currently considering the issue of iodine intake.

It is interesting that the paper reports higher thyroid volumes in Ireland and Germany.

It is also interesting that Switzerland apparently adopted a doses of 3mg.

Some of the historical references are fascinating

Effect of daily ingestion of a tablet containing 5 mg iodine and 7.5 mg iodide as the potassium salt, for a period of 3 months, on the results of thyroid function tests and thyroid volume by ultrasonometry in ten euthyroid Caucasian women.

Guy E. Abraham M.D., Jorge D. Flechas M.D., and John C. Hakala R. Ph.


"Considering the importance of this element for overall well-being, it is most amazing that no study so far has attempted to answer the very important question: What is the optimal amount of daily I intake that will result in the greatest levels of mental and physical well-being in the majority of a population with a minimum of negative effects?"

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Old 11-03-2013, 09:19 AM   #63
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

This is a particularity interesting 1955 ! paper where the authors have clearly grappled with the issue of the interaction of flouride and iodine, and as to whether adequate iodine will overcome excess fluoride, when considering thyroid function. They were clearly well ahead of their time.

They starkly conclude that iodine will not negate the inhibiting effects of high fluoride on thyroid function.

They also emphasise the importance of other inhibitors of iodine metabolism.

It is somewhat ironic that this observation was made over 50 years ago.

The Relationship Between Fluoride Exposure & Goitre in South Africa - March 1955


Abstract - several pages of excerpts from the paper are cited

"Prophylaxis and Treatment of Simple Goitre. – It is generally accepted that man’s physiological requirements of iodine is approximately 2.0 ug. per kilogram per day, i.e. if man daily ingests this amount of iodine there should be no significant enlargement of the thyroid gland. However, recent researches into the problem of thyroid enlargement have revealed to us various interesting and important factors upon which the normal function and size of this gland depend. These factors have been discussed under III and VIII B. It has become obvious that we cannot lay down a single definite figure for man’s daily iodine requirement as it depends upon various factors, e.g. goitrogenic foods, goitrogens in the drinking water, goitrogenic medicines, bacterial infections, and vitamin deficiencies. Fortunately, as a general rule simple goitre, irrespective of the cause, can be very, or fairly, satisfactorily combated by an adequate increase in man’s daily iodine intake, except when the enlargement of the gland is due to the ingestion of excessive amounts of fluorine, as happens in areas where the subterranean waters are heavily contaminated with this halogen. The only correct solution to fluorine-induced endemic goitre is the removal of this element from the drinking water. Also from the point of view of general health this is the correct procedure…"

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Old 11-04-2013, 04:13 PM   #64
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

Widespread iodine deficiency in breast milk in the US ?

It is often suggested in material that iodine status in the US is better than the UK; I have not looked for data so have no data to back this up. The above figures from the Avon study would suggest levels of iodine in breast milk are also likely to be low in the UK

Temporal Patterns in Perchlorate, Thiocyanate, and Iodide Excretion in Human Milk


"Breast milk–iodine content is considered sufficient when levels are 150–180 μg/L (Delange 2004). Milk samples provided by most women in our previous study (Kirk et al. 2005) fell far short of this standard. The median iodide level in human milk from 23 donors residing in 15 different states (Kirk et al. 2005) was 33.5 μg/L, and only 4 samples fell within the recommended level. We have therefore been concerned that lactating women in the United States may not be consuming sufficient iodine to meet the needs of their breast-fed infants."

The paper also expresses concerns about the effect of perchlorate on the iodine content of breast milk and the potential effect of perchlorate in breast milk. The paper observes that little is know about the issues.

It appears that perchlorate on a unit weight basis is a comparatively powerful competitive inhibitor of iodine uptake; the effect will depend on the amount taken up - so other blocking factors by be more important if and when present in much greater quantity eg food goitrogens - the effect will also depend on the amount of iodine in the diet; the lower the amount the great susceptibility to competitive blockers - fluoride appears to work by a different blocking mechanism (see above).

"Exposure to perchlorate and other iodide transport inhibitors may increase the risk of iodine deficiency among infants. The sodium–iodide symporter (NIS) is 30-fold more selective for perchlorate than for iodide and is reportedly 9–100 times as potent as thiocyanate in inhibiting iodide uptake (Dohan et al. 2003; Tonacchera et al. 2004). Perchlorate and other iodide transport inhibitors such as thiocyanate thus likely reduce transfer of iodide to breast milk at the mammary NIS."

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Old 11-04-2013, 04:36 PM   #65
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

The above paper references this paper, which provides further information on the iodine requirements to preterm babies. Have formulas been updated; I do not know but this abstract highlights the importance of iodine in preterm infants


J Pediatr Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Dec;18 Suppl 1:1257-64.
Neonatal iodine deficiency: clinical aspects.
Ares S, Quero J, Morreale de Escobar G.

Neonatology Unit, University Hospital La Paz, Paseo de la Castellana 261, 28046 Madrid, Spain sares.gapm05@salud.madrid.org

Iodine is a trace element which is essential for the synthesis of thyroid hormones. The thyroid hormones, thyroxine (T4) and 3,5,3'-triiodothyronine (T3), are necessary for adequate growth and development throughout fetal and extrauterine life. The iodine intake of newborns is entirely dependent on the iodine content of breast milk and the formula preparations used to feed them. An inadequate iodine supply might be especially dangerous in the case of premature babies. The minimum recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for different age groups has recently been revised. The iodine intake required is at least 15 microg/kg/day in full-term infants and 30 microg/kg/day in preterms. The iodine content of many evaluated preparations for feeding premature infants appears to be inadequate. Premature infants are now in a situation of iodine deficiency, precisely at a stage of psychomotor and neural development which is extremely sensitive to alterations of thyroid function.

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Old 11-08-2013, 04:04 PM   #66
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

Interestingly Dr Flechas reports that patients low in iodine have difficulty perspiring.

Between maybe 19 - 40micrograms per liter (and more in those with high iodine intake can be lost in sweat). The 19 mcg was lost in Irish subjects who are reported as having low iodine.

The second summary below suggests that considerable quantities of microminerals can also be lost in sweat.

The amount of iodine in sweat is fairly stable

This reference book is the most comprehensive single source of information on sweating and iodine I have found - pages 569 onwards http://books.google.com/books?id=7v7...ciency&f=false

The first paper showed that very active sports persons were at much higher risk of grade 1 goitre that sedentary students.

So it appears that those low in iodine who take significant exercise are at greater risk of iodine deficiency. A high intake of iodine blockers would add to the problem - viz flouride chloride and perchlorate in the water they use to replenish the sweat loss.

Arch Environ Health. 2001 May-Jun;56(3):271-7.
Electrolyte loss in sweat and iodine deficiency in a hot environment.
Mao IF, Chen ML, Ko YC.

Institute of Environmental Health Sciences, College of Medicine, National Yang-Ming University, Taipei, Taiwan.

The authors studied electrolyte loss from profuse sweating in soccer-team players and evaluated the relationship between this source of iodine loss and iodine deficiency. Thirteen male soccer-team players and 100 sedentary students from the same high school were evaluated for 8 d, during which the players were training. The authors analyzed 208 sweat samples to determine losses of iodine, sodium, potassium, and calcium in sweat. Excretion of urinary electrolytes by the subjects was also measured. The mean losses of iodine, sodium, potassium, and calcium in sweat following a 1-hr game were 52 microg, 1,896 mg, 248 mg, and 20 mg, respectively; the ratios of sweat loss to urinary daily loss of the four electrolytes were 0.75, 0.2, 1.88, and 0.92, respectively. Urinary iodine was significantly (p < .02) lower than the normal level of 50 microg/gm creatinine in 38.5% of the soccer players, compared with 2% of the sedentary students. Forty-six percent of the players had Grade I goiter, compared with a mere 1% of the sedentary students (p < .01). The results of the study suggest that loss of iodine through profuse sweating may lead to iodine deficiency, and loss of electrolytes through sweating may have a dietary significance for heat-stressed individuals or for individuals who perform heavy workloads.

Accession Number : AD0447382




Personal Author(s) : Consolagio, Frank C. ; Nelson, Richard A. ; Matough, Leroy O. ; Hughes, Ronald C. ; Urone, Paul

Report Date : 18 AUG 1964

Pagination or Media Count : 14

Abstract : The results of this study show that considerable quantities of the trace minerals, including zinc, selenium, copper, cobalt, iodine, strontium, molybdenum, nickel, lead and chromium, are excreted in sweat, under conditions that produce profuse sweating. These losses are extremely important since they reflect losses that should be included in balance studies, which would greatly aid in evaluating more realistically the minimal daily requireents. As in previous studies, the excretion of these trace minerals in sweat decreases appreciably during acclimatization to hot environments. (Author)
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Old 11-08-2013, 04:34 PM   #67
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

And for all you reggae fans; something to listen to http://tonyvendryes.com/ whilst reading this thread (-:

(It takes a few seconds for the music to start once you the page opens, worth the wait )

Bear with the spoken intro the song starts quite quickly (-:

Love the lyrics (-:

I have not looked at the site content, but love this Doctor's approach.


"Prevention is better than cure you often have been told make wellness your number one goal for health is better than gold"

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Old 11-10-2013, 09:39 AM   #68
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

It appears the breast largely keeps fluoride out of breast milk.

Concerns have been raised as to very young infant exposure to fluoride in formula water and foods http://fluoridealert.org/studies/infant02/

This paper looks at the fluoride levels in milk, which were in comparison to levels in fluoridated water were low, (with the exception of the soy milk), which makes their conclusion thought provoking.


SUMMARY: Fluoride analyses were carried out on 42 different types and brands of milk obtained from supermarkets. The average fluoride content of dairy milk is 0.030 ppm, with a range of 0.007 to 0.068. Soy milk contains as much as 0.491 ppm fluoride. Infant daily fluoride intake as low as 0.04 mg/kg body weight can result in fluorosis of the permanent dentition. Therefore, in view of the very large variation in milk fluoride content, it is suggested that daily consumption of milk with high fluoride content could be a contributing factor to increased prevalence of dental fluorosis. In view of results of the present study, monitoring of fluoride content in dairy milk available from supermarkets may be necessary.

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Old 11-10-2013, 10:02 AM   #69
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

This paper is full of thought provoking material including these two references to the use of iodine for water purification in prison populations.

It makes the point in the introduction that cooking losses of iodine can be significant, which is both of relevance to us in the west and in assessing Japanese iodine intakes.

"The iodine content of raw food is reduced by cooking (WHO, 1996). For example, the iodine loss on boiling or grilling/frying fish was 50-82 and 20% respectively (Harrison et al., 1965)."

It also suggest that absorption of iodine in food may only be 50%.

"22. Inorganic iodine is readily absorbed from the gut, generally as iodide (Nordic Project Group, 1995). However, probably only 50% of iodine present in organic compounds in foods is absorbed (Bender and Bender 1997). Though some absorption occurs in the stomach, the small intestine appears to be the principal site of absorption in both humans and rats (Riggs, 1952, Small et al., 1961)."

I have been looking for but unable to find any papers looking at the effect of thiocyantes / perchlorate / nitrates etc on the iodine importers in the gut (if any)

Logically losses in the gut and in food preparation need to be considered in making any dietary recommendations.

Vegans are reported to be at particular risk of low iodine levels.

"40. It has been reported that vegans and vegetarians can consume inadequate intakes of dietary iodine. A controlled experimental diet (performed in Germany, a classical iodine deficient country until the mid 1990s) used a repeated measure method (Remer et al., 1999). It exposed six adult volunteers to a 5 day dietary intervention in which isoenergetic lactovegetarian and non vegetarian diets were
consumed. The strict vegetarian diet produced both an extremely low iodine intake (<20 μg/d) and urinary output (36.6 (SD 8.8) μg/d). The authors concluded that strict vegetarians are possibly at risk of developing iodine defciency disorders."

The risks associated with low intake could possibly be added to increased thiocyanate intake in basicas by virtue of higher vegetable intake, and increased goitrogens in soy by virtue of a higher intake of soy products

Could the high levels of hypothyroidism in Whickham (UK) Par 65 be maybe due to high fluoride intake from sources unknown - industry or water etc



__________________________________________________ _______________________________33
This paper has been prepared for consideration by the Expert Group on Vitamins and Minerals and
does not necessarily represent the final views of the Group.

136.The health and thyroid function of representative subjects of a prison population
(initially 133 euthyroid prisoners though due to discharge this number was
gradually reduced to 70) was assessed before and during usage of iodinated water
for 9 months (Freund et al., 1966). Water containing 1 mg/l iodine induced a
marked decrease in the uptake of radioactive iodine to 7% but protein bound
iodine levels did not change significantly until the iodine concentration was
increased to 5 mg/l for 2 months (following 7 months exposure at the lower
level), resulting in a decrease of radioactive iodine to 2%. Serum thyroxine
concentration did not change regardless of the iodine concentration. No
information on actual intake is provided but it can be assumed that water
consumption would be approximately 2 litres/day. The authors noted that
prisoners continued to receive iodine from the diet including the use of iodised
salt. It was also noted that no effects on thyroid function were found in nonprison
personnel who swam in water iodinated at a level of 5 mg/l. No evidence
of iodine allergy was apparent. Two of fifteen male inmates who had had
consumed water containing 1 mg I/l for at least 3 months, had impaired iodine
organification (as measured by the change in thyroidal 131I concentration
following administration of perchlorate). The clinical significance of this effect is
unclear as individual T4 concentrations remained unchanged throughout the
study i.e. no patients demonstrated iodine-induced hypothyroidism.

137. As a continuation of the study discussed above, iodination of a prison water
supply at a concentration of 0.5 to 0.75 mg/l (estimated intake 1-1.5 mg/day) for
up to15 years did not result in any change to serum thyroxine level (Thomas, et
a., 1978). During the same period, 177 women in the prison gave birth to 181
full term infants without any enlargement of the thyroid being noted in the infants
(Stockton and Thomas, 1978). The mothers of 101 infants had been in prison for
≥122 days, whilst 80 mothers had been incarcerated for < 118 days (10-118).
However, the symptoms of 4 women who were hyperthyroid before entering,

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Old 11-13-2013, 03:58 PM   #70
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

Thyroid peroxidase activity as toxicity target for fluoride in patients with thyroid dysfunction

https://www.google.com/search?q=flou...icial&start=20 (free full paper PDF)

Swati Singla and Shashi A*
Department of Zoology, Punjabi University, Patiala- 147002, Punjab, India
* Corresponding author: Shashi Aggarwal, email: shashiuniindia@yahoo.co.in

The present study aimed to assess the effects of drinking water fluoride (F) on the activity of thyroid peroxidase (TPO) enzyme involved in thyroid hormone synthesis. 840 fluorotic patients affected with thyroid hypo and
hyper function and 140 euthyroid without fluorosis representing control were randomly selected from high endemic fluoride areas of Bathinda district, Punjab, India. The findings indicate significant (P<0.001) increase in the levels of serum F, urinary F and Urinary iodine (I) in fluorotic patients affected with thyroid disease.
Significant (P<0.001) inhibition was recorded in activity of TPO in fluorotic patients with thyroid hypofunction and the activity was elevated in hyperthyroid fluorotic patients. Pearson’s bivariate correlation revealed strong positive correlation between water F and serum F (r= 0.98, P<0.01). Negative correlation existed between serum F vs TPO (r= -0.93, P<0.003), urinary I vs TPO (r = -0.95, P<0.002) and serum TSH vs TPO (r = -0.8876, P<0.001). The activity of TPO showed positive correlation with T3 (r = 0.963, P<0.01) as well as with T4 (r = 0.965, P<0.001). From the present study it may be concluded that the ingestion of drinking water with high concentration of fluoride leads to stress of the mechanism of biosynthesis of thyroid hormones, as evidenced by depletion in the activity of TPO, which may be produced by the attraction of fluoride with oxidized form of iodide and/or with the iodide site on the TPO molecule. This tends to decrease in concentration of T3, T4 and increase production of TSH in the serum.

Over the past decade there has been an increasing focus
on the effects of hazardous chemicals on human
endocrine systems. Exposure to specific environmental
toxins has been shown to interfere with the production,
transportation and metabolism of thyroid hormones
(TH) by a variety of mechanisms or in modifying the
metabolism of thyroid hormones. Environmental
endocrine disruptors are exogenous substances that
can interfere with TH synthesis, deiodinase function in
peripheral tissues, proteins in the blood, and the
agonistic or antagonistic actions of certain chemicals on
target tissue receptors [1]. Fluorine containing
compound have been listed among the most significant
endotoxins that appear in natural environment as after
effects of industrial activity of humans. The high cell
membrane penetrating power, bioaccumulation, and
biodegradable property of fluoride cause it to have a
major impact on ecotoxicology

The U.S National Research Council [3] states fluoride is
an endocrine disruptor and has the potential to disrupt
the function of many tissues that require iodine. Studies
that have examined human populations with adequate
intake of iodine have reported mixed results about
fluoride’s ability to produce goiter [4]. The research has
been more consistent, however, where the examined
populations had either excessive iodine intakes [5], or
deficient iodine intakes [6].
Thyroid disruptors can
affect thyroid physiology in many phases of thyroid
regulation. The complex system of iodine uptake,
thyroid hormone production, interconversion of
thyroid hormones and hormone degradation and
elimination can be directly altered by thyroid
disruptors [7].

And in the body of the text

Fluoride had significant effect on TPO activity, and
decreases T3 and T4 levels and increases TSH. This
disruption of TPO activity could be a sensitive TH end
point for various concentrations of water fluoride.
Several chlorinated POPs disrupt the TH axis, including
polychlorinated biphenyls, polychlorinated dibenzo-pdioxins,
and dibenzofurans [25,26]. In animal studies,
Boas et al. [27] reported that fluorinated compounds
such as PFOS and PFOA also inhibited TPO activity in
the rats, with reductions in T4 and T3.

PFOS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluo...esulfonic_acid

PFOA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluorooctanoic_acid

and there is a great table showing urine and serum fluorine levels for various intakes of fluorine ; they rise "significantly" as does iodine excretion !

The increase level of urinary iodine with increasing fluoride intake is striking. They do not record the iodine intakes, but this raises some interesting questions as to why more iodine is being excreted in those with a high fluoride intake - if intakes of iodine are already low would this be a double high fluoride intake whammy?

Should all thyroid function assessments also look at flouride levels ? I have no idea to what extent the issue is on the wider public health adgenda. This is the NHS UK information of fluoride that I found http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Fluorid...roduction.aspx makes no mention of flouride and potential impact on thyroid function on this page.

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Old 11-14-2013, 04:22 AM   #71
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

This 'in full' paper on Fluoride Alert raises some interesting questions and information. I found it whilst trying to better understand the role of fluorine in hyperthyroidism.

Is fluoride-induced hyperthyroidism a cause of psychosis among East African immigrants to Scandinavia?

Viz local waters in some parts of Africa can contain 10 -40ppm of fluoride which raises the question what levels of fluorosis and thyroid problems do these groups have; one of the attached papers looks at fluorosis in Africa, which I will read and link here later.

This video clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkJuWLMaoG0 is intriguing (but has no details as to the speaker or occasion). If correct the information would seem to be of importance; viz that fluoride can substitute for iodine in T3 and T4, and tests for them will not differentiate between the iodine and fluorine content of T3 and T4, which would surely have a raft of implications. For example could a fluoride rich T4 result in higher activity in a still healthy thyroid because it fails to satisfy the body's demand for iodine?

It is also suggested soy is high in fluorine. I have seen this suggested before but not a paper as yet; if correct is high fluoride an inherent property of soy or a consequence of the type of the land it has been grown on?

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Old 11-14-2013, 04:58 PM   #72
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

This is the paper I mention above.

It is fascinating because it suggests that calcium in the diet through milk can mitigate the effect of fluorine intake, it is presumed by reducing the uptake of fluorine by the gut.

Further those that drank from well where the water was higher in calcium also appear protected, even though they had relatively high intakes of fluorine. Those that had higher fluoride plus low calcium saw a high incidence of dental fluorosis.

There is no information on selenium zinc magnesium iron etc.

Seaweed is apparently in relative terms very high in calcium; might calcium in seaweed explain why there is no widespread suggestion that fluorosis was an problem in Hokkaido. Would this also explain why fish such as sardines are not associated with fluorosis or thyroid issues, because the bones which are high in fluoride are also high in calcium.

Apparently other studies has suggested vitamin D may also be a factor in fluorosis.

The paper states it was unable to show a direct association between fluoride intake and the occurrence of fluorosis.

Poor absorption of fluoride may explain why its effects are limited in other high fluoride areas.

All of which suggests it is important in fluoride studies to look at urinary fluoride, (so uptake as well as intake is known) and it would also be informative if iodine in the diet and in urine was measured too (to help tease out the roots of hyperthyroidism).

So as usual in human biology it appears that mechanisms are multifaceted and widely interconnected.

Groundwater quality and its health impact: An assessment of dental fluorosis in rural inhabitants of the Main Ethiopian Rift
Tewodros Rango a,⁎, Julia Kravchenko b, Behailu Atlaw c, Peter G. McCornick d, Marc Jeuland e, Brittany Merola a, Avner Vengosh a

PDF full version


PS. I have spent quite a while searching for papers on the displacement in the body of iodine by fluorine in T3 and T4 without much success so far. It does appear at least the first step can be created in the lab.

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Old 11-14-2013, 05:04 PM   #73
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

This paper adds to the evidence that fluoride is actively prevented from incorporation in breast milk.

Eur J Clin Nutr. 1991 Jan;45(1):37-41.
Intake of fluoride and excretion in mothers' milk in a high fluoride (9 ppm) area in Kenya.
Opinya GN, Bwibo N, Valderhaug J, Birkeland JM, Lökken P.

Department of Dental Surgery, University of Nairobi, Kenya.

In 27 nursing mothers a study was made on breast milk fluoride (F) levels and the 24-h intake of F through foods and beverages. The daily F intake averaged 22.1 mg (range 9.5-37.2 mg); cooked food contributed 11.7 mg, water 4.5 mg and tea 5.8 mg. The breast milk F concentration averaged 0.033 mg/l (range 0.011-0.073 mg/l). No significant correlation could be established between the milk F level and the intake of F. The milk F level was, however, correlated positively to mothers' age and negatively to mothers' weight. It is concluded that the milk fluoride level was only moderately increased by the high intake of F, and that the children's intake of F through mothers' milk was negligible compared to the very high F intake through complementary foods and beverages.
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Old 11-15-2013, 04:06 PM   #74
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

This is a very useful slide presentation which I found today that contains lots of thought provoking information by Abraham, Brownstein, Eskin, Flechas and Shevin

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Old 11-15-2013, 04:29 PM   #75
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

Back to the issue of calcium; and if calcium inhibits fluoride absorption it must follow that fluoride inhibits calcium absorption . . .

In nature calcium fluoride is apparently a common source of fluorides, and it is likely the association of the two that prevents absorption http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_fluoride

Metabolism. 1978 Aug;27(8):971-4.
Effect of concurrent calcium ingestion on intestinal absorption of fluoride.
Jowsey J, Riggs BL.

It has been suggested that calcium interferes with absorption of fluoride and that it diminishes the effect this ion has of increasing the bone mass when taken orally. Normal volunteers were given a combination of fluoride and calcium carbonate or fluoride alone, and serum levels of fluoride were measured to determine the effect, if any, of the concomitant administration of calcium on absorption of fluoride.The results indicate that 1.3 g of calcium, as the carbonate, decreases the integrated blood fluoride values by 22%.

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Old 11-15-2013, 04:37 PM   #76
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

Effect of Sodium Fluoride on Calcium Absorption and Balances in Man1,2

ISAAC LEWIN, M.D., Associate Chief4,
JOSEPHINE FOWLER, M.S., Research Dietitian5, and

The crunch

(47Ca = radioactive calcium so it can be traced)


3) In the majority of patients the plasma levels of 47Ca were lower during the intake of sodium fluoride than in the control studies indicating decreased absorption of 47Ca. The average decrease of the 47Ca plasma levels was 30% and the average decrease in 47Ca absorption, determined from fecal 47Ca excretions, was 23%.

which from the conclusion is not what they were anticipating . . .

4) These studies have shown that the intestinal absorption of calcium and the calcium balances did not improve during an intake of 20.6 mg sodium fluoride/day given for 22-42 days.

somewhat of an understatement

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Old 11-16-2013, 11:59 AM   #77
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

It appears that fluoride may also inhibit magnesium uptake and re-uptake, and that conversely magnesium may inhibit fluoride uptake. The first abstract points out the importance of magnesium, the rising fluoride intake and falling magnesium intake and discusses possible implications.


by A Machoy-Mokrzynska (Institute of Pharmacology and Toxicology, Pomeranian Medical Academy, Szczecin, Poland)
Fluoride (J. of the International Society for Fluoride Research), Vol. 28 No. 4; November, 1995, pp 175-177

In summary, it can be stated that in intoxication with fluorine compounds, magnesium plays a protective role by countering and reducing the toxic effects of F-.


Influence of Dietary Magnesium on Fluoride
Bioavailability in the Rat1'2
Department of Foods and Nutrition, College of Home Economics, Oregon State University,
Corvallis, OR 97331

Enhancement of fluoride bioavailability
in rats fed diets containing low magnesium,
and depressed fluoride bioavailability in rats fed diets
containing high levels of magnesium, can be explained
by the ability of magnesium to form an insoluble com
plex with fluoride in the intestinal tract.
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Old 11-16-2013, 12:04 PM   #78
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

From this study it appears that zinc are iron are unlikely to inhibit fluoride uptake or visa versa, but as discussed both have wider roles in the body and thyroid.

Influence of Zinc and Iron on Dietary Fluoride
Utilization in the Rat1
Department of Foods and Nutrition, College of Home
Economics, Oregon State University, Corvallis, OR 97331

Our studies were specifically designed to provide concepts about the effects of dietary trace element supplementation practices on dietary fluoride bioavailability especially in terms of fluoride originating from foods prepared in fluoridated water. Our results suggest that either iron or zinc can be added to foods to improve nutritional value without com promising the availability of food fluoride
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Old 11-16-2013, 12:30 PM   #79
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

This British Fluoridation Society looked at the impact of trace minerals on fluoride in water and their interaction in the water itself but NOT in the body.


They concluded page 4 in their "independent expert review of the chemistry and uptake (bio-availability) of fluoride in drinking water" )
"that the effect of calcium magnesium and sodium - on the chemical reaction and hence uptake of fluoride - is small" page 17

The observation that little reaction occurred in water between fluorine and minerals is interesting, because it tells us that the majority of the interaction of minerals and fluoride referred to in papers in the posts above were as a result of complex interactions in the body and or gut biome, rather than within the water itself.

But there is something rather depressing in the fact that what appears to be an important official report, fails to examine the core issues, viz metabolism in the human body, and yet draws a wide conclusion; a presumption that the mineral content of water has no effect of the uptake of fluoride in humans.

The failure to consider uptake of fluoride as affected by other minerals by reference to human metabolism must logically add uncertainty as to examinations by region in support of the claimed benefits for fluoridation, and levels of fluoride water supplementation ultimately selected, because the reality is human absorption of fluoride will depend on the wider mineralisation of the water at least to some extent.

There has also been no consideration of the lifetime impact of fluoride on mineral availability and uptake in humans from water in a world where mineral intakes in humans and livestock are dropping due to falling levels of minerals in food.

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Old 11-18-2013, 06:33 AM   #80
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Re: Iodine deficiency ! - falling intakes - goitregens - competition bromine and fluo

For the avoidance of doubt there is a mass of evidence that fluoride has an important role in the hardness of enamel, and topical delivery (viz toothpaste) has been shown to increase hardness of enamel, but it appears there may be non-flouridated products that also increase enamel hardness.

Fluoride is found in sea water and soil, and certainly has a role in the biological function of the body. As with many things the level of toxicity is in the dose; many things that are essential to human existence are toxic in abnormal amounts including water. It does appear that the level of flouride intake in breast fed infants is low, and nature evolution or intelligent design appears to have arranged it that way, so maybe there is a lesson there.

However overall fouride is not per se toxic, but is harmful in inappropriate amounts in the given circumstances, which will depend on other dietary factors, age, and probably genetic makeup . . .

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...56643336,d.ZGU This paper looked at 5 different tooth pastes some with fluoride and some without on extracted teeth in artificial saliva. Interestingly the non fluoridated products had similar effects on hardness.

It is also interesting that they used chlorinated water to soften the teeth first. OK it was for 24 hours, but the fact is still thought provoking given "There have been several case reports of competitive swimmers suffering dental erosion from swimming in gas-chlorinated pools (Centerwall et al, 1986)."

Toothpaste can contain large amounts of fluoride. In this paper those pastes that contained fluoride had 900 - 1000 mg of fluoride per kg. For this reason it is important not to swallow or eat toothpaste, and to rinse really well after brushing. Further apparently the amount used should be the size of a pea rather than a wide strip down the brush.

As a child I and others would occasionally eat small amounts of toothpaste because it tasted good, used the lots on the brush because that is what they did in the adverts, and were not very fussy about rinsing because we knew that toothpaste was good for teeth. Nobody mentioned the wider issues of fluoride excess.

The debate is are there better ways of delivering products fluoride to teeth that may protect them against erosion than inclusion in drinking water, and are any potential benefits of fluoridation of water outweighed by other heath risks brought by the additive effect of fluoride in water, in addition to the modern-day increased occurrence of fluoride in the environment and in foods?

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