HonCode

Go Back   HER2 Support Group Forums > Articles of Interest
Register Gallery FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-12-2013, 07:56 AM   #1
AlaskaAngel
Senior Member
 
AlaskaAngel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Alaska
Posts: 2,018
Rads and the myth of chemo wiping out that "last stray cancer cell"

http://www.cancer.gov/newscenter/can...ancerStemCells

__________________
Dx 2002 age 51
bc for granny, aunt, cousin, sister, mother.
ER+/PR+/HER2+++, grade 3
IDC 1.9 cm, some DCIS, Stage 1, Grade 3
Lumpectomy, CAFx6 (no blood boosters), IMRT rads, 1 3/4 yr tamoxifen
Rads necrosis
BRCA 1 & 2 negative
Trials: Early detection OVCA; 2004 low-dose testosterone for bc survivors
Diet: Primarily vegetarian organic; metformin (no diabetes), vitamin D3
Exercise: 7 days a week, 1 hr/day
No trastuzumab, no taxane, no AI
NED
AlaskaAngel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2013, 01:44 PM   #2
donocco
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 474
Re: Rads and the myth of chemo wiping out that "last stray cancer cell"

In 1999 a doctor named George Brewer did an experiment with copper reduction using a copper chelator called Ammonium Tetrathiomolybdate. He got a few very positive results and this was in advanced cancer patients of differing types of cancer.

Apparently the proteins involved in tumor blood vessel formation are dependent on copper ions, and if you can lower the patients serum copper to 20% of baseline you can halt tumor blood vessel formation (tumor angiogenesis) without much toxicity to the patient.

If this is correct, at least in theory, an oncologist could use copper reduction to prevent these stem cells from forming life
threatening mets. Once the tumor reaches a size of one million cells (about the size of the smallest dot you can make with your pencil) if it doesn't start producing blood vessels it cant grow much further. Keeping the patients copper level low might be very valuable in the long term treatment of cancer.
The patient's copper level would have to be carefully monitored by the oncologist because if it goes too low there can be anemia and neutropenia.

Paul
donocco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2013, 10:05 AM   #3
'lizbeth
Senior Member
 
'lizbeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sunny San Diego
Posts: 2,214
Re: Rads and the myth of chemo wiping out that "last stray cancer cell"

Can you also affect the balance of copper in the body by supplementing with zinc?
'lizbeth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2013, 01:47 PM   #4
donocco
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 474
Re: Rads and the myth of chemo wiping out that "last stray cancer cell"

Elizabeth

Yes you can. When you take zinc orally day after day a protein called Metallothionein forms in the intestine and Metallothonein acts as a copper chelator and prevents copper absorbtion into the bloodstream from food, water (copper pipes) and saliva and gastric juice. In fact you can even use chronic zinc supplementation like Ammonium Tetrathiomolybdate to drastically lower the serum copper to 20% of normal but using zinc can take a year or more to accomplish this, whereas the Ammonium Tetrathiomolybdate therapy (20mg six times a day) takes about 3 months.

Certainly Im not advocating or recommending self treatment with zinc salts. You need to be closely monitored by the physician as there can be serious problems if the copper level falls too low, ie anemia and neutropenia. If you are on chemo that can lower blood cell counts, as so many chemos do, being deficient in copper can be even more serious. Copper is definitely an important factor in helping cancer cells grow and spread,
but it is also vital for life. What Dr. George Brewer found is that you can drastically lower the serum copper, interfere with cancer cell growth, but still have enough copper for physiological processes needed by the body. Brewer lowered the copper to 20% of normal with Ammonium Tetrathiomolybdate. He measured, not the blood copper levels but the serum Ceruloplasmin. This (Ceruloplasmin)
is a copper carrying protein in the blood. A normal level might be 35mg% of Ceruloplasmin. In cancer patients it is often higher. Brewer attempted to lower the Ceruloplasmin to about 7 or 8 mg % , no lower than 5mg %.

Dr. Brewer planned to lower the copper levels as fast as possible with the Ammonium Tertathiomolybdate, then keep the copper levels down using zinc salts. There is a prescription zinc slt called Galzin (Zinc Acetate) and is used to keep the copper levels down in Wilson's disease which is an hereditary disease of abnormal copper metabolism.

Paul
donocco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2013, 12:41 AM   #5
Aussie Girl
Senior Member
 
Aussie Girl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 260
Re: Rads and the myth of chemo wiping out that "last stray cancer cell"

Just remember that there are a lot of studies confirming the benefit of radiation in reducing local recurrences. The residual stem cells finding is of concern, but needs more investigation to work out if treatment should be changed.

Aussie Girl
__________________
31mm Infiltrating duct carcinoma
Grade 3, ER/PR-, HER2+, Neg Sentinel nodes x 5
49mm field of DCIS
17 June '13: Screen detected impalpable mass, Mammogram neg, US.
25 June '13: Diagnosed after multiple biopsies and MRIs
28 June '13: Left lumpectomey
4 July '13: Left Mastectomy
12 August '13: Commenced TCH chemo
Mid December '13 : TCH finished. Herceptin continuing three weekly.
4 August 2014- Herceptin infusions finished.
END OF THERAPY - YAY!
Aussie Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2013, 01:11 PM   #6
'lizbeth
Senior Member
 
'lizbeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sunny San Diego
Posts: 2,214
Re: Rads and the myth of chemo wiping out that "last stray cancer cell"

This research comes from the same college research facility that Dennis Slamon is at.

Quote:
Dennis J. Slamon, M.D., Ph.D., serves as director of Clinical/Translational Research, and as director of the Revlon/UCLA Women's Cancer Research Program at JCCC. He is a professor of medicine, chief of the Division of Hematology/Oncology and executive vice chair for research for UCLA's Department of Medicine. Slamon also serves as director of the medical advisory board for the National Colorectal Cancer Research Alliance, a fund-raising organization that promotes advances in colorectal cancer.
It does make one think. After all, doesn't the "average" breast cancer take about 5-7 years to grow to approximately the stage II characteristics? If we look at the recent recurrence patterns for our breast cancer they peak about 20 to 24 months, and 5-7 years generally.

Perhaps radiation therapy destroys the factors that create an early recurrence and creates factors that foster a later recurrence.

This, of course, is all speculation - the point is some fascinating information is starting to come from all these decades of research.

I didn't opt for radiation, so did not read the studies you are referring to Aussie Girl. Are these radiation studies based on 5 year survival, 10 year survival?

With neoadjuvant treatment perhaps a larger number of women will have pCR and negative nodes and will be lucky enough to opt out of radiation as well. Fingers crossed.
'lizbeth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2013, 01:30 PM   #7
'lizbeth
Senior Member
 
'lizbeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sunny San Diego
Posts: 2,214
Re: Rads and the myth of chemo wiping out that "last stray cancer cell"

@Paul,

I haven't been tested for mineral levels. I might supplement with zinc citrate during the cold and flu season. I plan on sticking close to the RDI of 15mg.

I was just reading this online; http://www.westonaprice.org/metaboli...zinc-imbalance

Something I was reading months ago about copper/zinc prompted me to order a bottle of zinc citrate. I don't recall the article now.

I love the information you share. Thanks for posting all the interesting details about copper and cancer.
'lizbeth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2013, 03:24 PM   #8
donocco
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 474
Re: Rads and the myth of chemo wiping out that "last stray cancer cell"

Elizabeth

Interesting to see your post because I was just thinking about this. Its very unlikely your doctor will approve intense zinc therapy to drastically lower copper levels. Remember copper reduction, although exciting and possibly effective to some degree is a new idea. Medicine tends to be conservative, as Im sure you know.

I thought of something else that is not as drastic and your doctor might be more agreeable to. I think you know about the copper to zinc ratio and how it gets high in cancers of various kinds Lymphomas, which are characterized by remission and recurrence show a relatively normal copper-zinc ratio (about 0.9) during periods of remission after chemo and when the patient goes out of remission the copper-zinc ratio rises to about 1.5.

I remember reading an article where women without suspicious breast lumps were compared to those who presented with breast lumps. Those without lumps had copper/zinc ratios of about 0.9.

What about those with breat lumps? Well, you have to divide these women into benign and malignant lumps. I think youve already guessed it, those with benign lumps had an average copper/zinc ratio of about 1.1, while those with malignant lumps had a copper/zinc ratio of about 1.5.

What the article didnt say, but Im guessing is those women with benign lumps could be divided into two main catagories. Those with benign but atypical cells in terms of size and shape, and those whose benign lumps were made up o f more normal looking cells. My guess (its a guess) is that the women with the benign atypical cells had higher copper/zinc ratios than those with more normal cells.

Its unlikely but possible that artifically raising the copper zinc ratio through zinc supplementation to a "normal" number (0.9 istead of 1.6) might make you more responsive to your regular treatment. I can see the holes in this kind of thinking, but it possibly could do some good. You would have to work closely with your oncologist to measure these ratios and see what dosage of zinc is needed to get the copper-zinc ratio to normal. Just a thought. If it rings an inner intuitive bell, speak with your oncologist.

Paul

PS I sort of apologize for my research oriented mind.
I was going to get a PHD in Pharmacology after Pharmacy School but I got married and went to work in retail
donocco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2013, 04:01 PM   #9
Aussie Girl
Senior Member
 
Aussie Girl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 260
Re: Rads and the myth of chemo wiping out that "last stray cancer cell"

The residual stem cell stuff is very interesting. The data on the value of radiation for early breast cancer dates back to the 1980's or earlier and has been repeatedly refined to try to find the lowest dose/ best method to reduce side effects. However there is not much data related to subtypes. There is evidence that Luminal A does better than everything else regarding local recurrence after surgery and radiation - no surprises there. Some meta- analyses have shown increased survival as well as decreased locoregional recurrence.

The UK NICE guidelines from 2009 give a good overview. They appear to have put off the 2012 update and next guidelines planned for 2015. The guidelines for radiation haven't been much changed since around 2005.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK11643/

The St. Gallen International Breast conferences from 2011 and 2013 are focusing on subtypes, not so much as they relate to radiotherapy but they are good summaries of what's new anyway. The radiotherapy changes appear to relate to how the radiotherapy is given.

http://annonc.oxfordjournals.org/con...2/8/1736.short
http://annonc.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/9/2206.full


I don't know much about stem cells. I can see from the net that CD44+/ CD24 -/lo mammary stem cells which express something called Notch and aldehyde dehygrogenase 1 have been increasingly studied as the potential source of recurrences and that they are resistant to radiation and chemotherapy compared to other cancer cells. They are related to some "invasive" genetic signatures.

Looks like there may soon be ways of detecting these cells to help determine risk of recurrence, which will hopefully lead to better therapy.

http://annonc.oxfordjournals.org/con.../10/2515.short

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...nticated=false
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa063994

Aussie Girl
__________________
31mm Infiltrating duct carcinoma
Grade 3, ER/PR-, HER2+, Neg Sentinel nodes x 5
49mm field of DCIS
17 June '13: Screen detected impalpable mass, Mammogram neg, US.
25 June '13: Diagnosed after multiple biopsies and MRIs
28 June '13: Left lumpectomey
4 July '13: Left Mastectomy
12 August '13: Commenced TCH chemo
Mid December '13 : TCH finished. Herceptin continuing three weekly.
4 August 2014- Herceptin infusions finished.
END OF THERAPY - YAY!
Aussie Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2013, 05:03 PM   #10
donocco
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 474
Re: Rads and the myth of chemo wiping out that "last stray cancer cell"

I read something once about Metformin, an antidiabetic drug being useful against stem cells. Ill research this and see what comes up

Paul
donocco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2013, 02:53 AM   #11
donocco
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 474
Re: Rads and the myth of chemo wiping out that "last stray cancer cell"

Apparently Metformin can selectively kill breast cancer stem cells whereas chemo drugs like Adriamycin cant. There is talk of combining Metformin with chemo . It apparently works by inhibiting the M-Tor pathway in a different manner than Affinitor whichis a direct M-Tor inhibitor. Metformin stimulates the activity of an enzyme called AMP-kinase and this results in a reduction of MTor activity. A dosage of 850mg twice daily of Metformin was suggested in a future clinical trial.

Paul
donocco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2013, 12:32 PM   #12
'lizbeth
Senior Member
 
'lizbeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sunny San Diego
Posts: 2,214
Re: Rads and the myth of chemo wiping out that "last stray cancer cell"

@Paul & AussieGirl

Thanks for the information. I will read it all eventually. Crazy time with the holidays.

It looks like some big changes are coming in cancer care. It is an exciting time - already different options for treatment as compared to 5 years ago. I can't wait for the time when Overall Survival and Disease free progression will become a given for a good outcome and the industry can focus on improving quality of life during and after treatment.

The radiation/stem cell issue, and the copper imbalance are both interesting issues to explore.
'lizbeth is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright HER2 Support Group 2007 - 2021
free webpage hit counter