If you starved cancer of glucose.. - Page 2

Becky · 06-24-2007, 06:24 PM

Just to shake this thread up a bit... it can all work until mutation takes place or there are some cells in a tumor that are Grade 1 - aka - almost like normal cells. Then what. Just because a tumor is Grade 2 or 3 doesn't mean ALL the cells are... If your tumor is 50% ER+ it means 50% of the cells have too many Estrogen receptors - not all the cells. Therefore, most cancer cells might need glucose (and lots of it) or lots of the insulin that the glucose makes the body secrete. Maybe other cells in the tumor LOVE corn oil. So, the glucose lovers die but the others survive (are resistant to your lack of sugar attempt) and those that survive do tend (in my research) be the slower to divide (and therefore more resistant to therapy of any kind because therapies (chemo, radiation etc) kill the fast to divide types... maybe the shear theory behind any resistance.

Comments? I hope so.

Liz J. · 06-24-2007, 06:25 PM

Hi all,

I am not sure if I missed anything on this particular subject, but my son was checking this out and said that he has heard that high fructose corn syrup is a culprit. Does anyone have any info on that?

Thank you.

Liz J.

Becky · 06-24-2007, 07:05 PM

Both corn syrup and high fructose corn syrup are converted to glucose as soon as it hits your stomach - as is fructose (fruit sugar) and sucrose (good ole table sugar).

dlaxague · 06-24-2007, 07:23 PM

Lots of great points and questions. Thanks to all who are participating, and thinking, thinking.

High fructose corn syrup is just one more quickly-digested sugar bolus, completely devoid of any other useful nutrients. Even the best organic fruit juice is not much better, from a carbohydrate perspective (same issue with quickly digested bolus of glucose). Our bodies were not designed to handle large amounts of simple carbs all at once. Also, we can have significant insulin overproduction/resistance going on without (yet) having elevated serum glucose levels and frank type II diabetes.

The trial of mice and people that looks at levels of glucose and/or ketogenesis could still be linked to my insulin overproduction/resistance discussion, since the body does produce insulin in response to blood sugar levels.

My personal thoughts, totally unencumbered by evidence, are that fasting will not make any difference (at least not for the reason you surmise - lowering blood sugar). In the absence of insulin resistance and/or high sugar boluses, blood sugar is maintained fairly tightly by the body and can never drop below a minimum because all cells, not just cancer, would not survive. When I read that cancer uses more glucose, that does not mean to me that it needs higher levels of glucose to thrive, but simply that it siphons off more than the other cells do, whatever the serum value of glucose at the time. And as the glucose is used (metabolized), whether by normal cells or by cancer cells, the body, thru several different mechanism of regulation, insures that the serum glucose is maintained so that energy is always available.

Debbie Laxague

Becky · 06-25-2007, 03:26 AM

Great points Debbie. Also - it just occurred to me that the only fuel the brain can use is glucose, period. So the body does need to maintain some minimum level because if the brain can't function neither can the body. However, maintaining a diet that has a low glycemic index overall (ie: eat fruit with the main meal that is high in fiber and other lower glycemic foods) is the best way to go overall for good health.

danceswithrain · 06-25-2007, 10:14 AM

This is a very interesting post! Really gets one thinking. My PET scan done just after my biospy and before chemo showed no cancer. Only inflamation from the biopsy. I am a Stage 3a with lymph node involvement. I am also borderline diabetic. Does this mean my cancer isn't using much sugar? They said it has a low metabiolic rate. Yet before chemo my tumor was growing very fast.
curiouser and curiouser.

R.B. · 06-25-2007, 01:19 PM

This is what wikipedia had to say re ketosis.

Complicated as usual.

I have not checked further but according to the below the brain can burn Ketones in part.

Fats can be used as an alternate fuel.

Protein etc can be converted to make glucose.

So a fast would presumably reduce glucose consumption but to what extent and in what time frame etc is not clear.

"When glycogen stores are not available in the cells (glycogen is primarily created when carbohydrates such as starch and sugar are consumed in the diet), fat (triacylglycerol) is cleaved to give 3 fatty acid chains and 1 glycerol molecule in a process called lipolysis. Most of the body is able to utilize fatty acids as an alternative source of energy in a process where fatty acid chains are cleaved to form acetyl-CoA, which can then be fed into the Krebs Cycle. During this process a high concentration of glucagon is present in the serum and this inactivates glucose kinase causing most cells in the body to use fatty acids as their primary energy source. At the same time, glucose is synthesized in the liver from lactic acid, glucogenic amino acids, and glycerol, in a process called gluconeogenesis. This glucose is used exclusively for energy by cells such as neurons and red blood cells.[citation needed]"

"If the diet is changed from a highly glycemic diet to a diet that does not substantially contribute to blood glucose, the body goes through a set of stages to enter ketosis. During the initial stages of this process the adult brain does not burn ketones, however the newborn brain makes immediate use of this important substrate for lipid synthesis in the brain. After about 48 hours of this process, the adult brain starts burning ketones in order to more directly utilize the energy from the fat stores that are being depended upon, and to reserve the glucose only for its absolute needs, thus avoiding the depletion of the body's protein store in the muscles."

Adriana Mangus · 06-25-2007, 01:37 PM

What your doctor is telling you regarding a recurrence, no one is guaranteed anything in life :-) I was supposed to be cancer "free" after five years, here am after almost 10 years from original dx battling bc again-see my profile-. Your doctor is an IDIOT and should not be practicing medicine, especially Oncology. Please keep us posted.

P.S. Can you switch doctors?

Mary Jo · 06-25-2007, 01:57 PM

The Pet/CT scan post is interesting. I remember before having mine being told to eat no carbs but was also told to not vigorously exercise 24 hours before. Interesting.

Mary Jo

Adriana Mangus · 06-25-2007, 02:10 PM

I do not have the brains to digest all this information. But here's

I'm the youngest of 3 sisters and the only one with breast cancer, I have never been into sweets, like the other two sisters, however am the only one stricken with cancer. Mother just turn 85 yrs old -healthy- no blood pressure, cholesterol, diabetes, etc.

Also, I have been the only one of the sisters to have practicec some type of exercise since I was 18-19 yrs old, running, playing basketball, voleyball, etc. Later in life I practiced Jazzercise, Yoga, Tai Chi or is this the tea? LOL. The other 2 have never, ever practiced any type of exercise, to the contrary then can, each; eat a box of chocolates,
-actually they have- so I do not get it. ??

P.S. This past Holidays Mom asked for a desert after dinner, when she found out that it consisted of a very sweet pie-Jewish Walnut Cake, she asked for a cup of coffee w/o sugar, as she was concerned with DIABETES!! We all laughed so hard!!!! Mom has always poured tons of sugar in her coffee, that night all of a sudden she got concerned about her health!!!

fullofbeans · 06-25-2007, 02:54 PM

Hi All

Firstly thank you R.B for your post and the extremely interesting paper:
http://content.febsjournal.org/cgi/c...ull/274/6/1393

The comments regarding the fact that oxidative process also exist in tumour cells is disturbing. But as mentioned in the video the mutation in the hypoxic zone are the one to watch for, these are the cells that will eventually become undifferentiated and resistant to any treatment. So the way I see if you can rid of them only it is already progress.

Secondly it will varie from people to people as we all know a drug works on someone and not on someone else who has the same cancer, subtle variation in mutation is the likely explanation.

Anyhow I will print that paper and give it great consideration and you are right there is not enough time to read everything. I need to revise on my biochemistry..

I had prepared an answer about the use of Ketone body by the brain (when fasting) not just glucose but just notice that R.B has been on the case..

In reply to R.B about time frame : 24 hour. Glycogene store (3%) of liver weight are used used within 24hour after which ketogenesis occurs. Protein is not broken down to produce glucose until there are no fat left effectively when you are starving not fasting (using fat reserve). Maintenance of blood glucose is a difficult mechanism which is still poorly understood and I have emailed someone about it as I want to underrstand it more. But in the meantime it is sufficient to know that glucose is no longer used when fasting because hormonal changes depresses insulin production by feedback mecanism (therefore if your cancer cell is sentive to insulin then you are still helping, the way I see it). And providing that you are not exercising above ketogenis level (i.e. do not require glucose) i.e. not running for long ect then glucose is likely to be left untouched. You can walk for many hours and still not require glucose however if you need to exercise because say you are running away from an attack, adrenaline will save the day..but I will stop here basically take home message if you are fasting to cut off glucose availability do not exercise hard since lactic acid can be transformed back into glucose, one would presume to allow us to run away from life threatening situation..god we are so well made!!

Adrianna: Regarding the comment from my surgeon I agree he is an idiot, but perhaps he has spurred on a awareness of my precarious condition and therefore a new fight in me by using every available knowledge I have accumulated..I was starting to be slack with my diet.. when he said that I answered " I hope that I will prove you wrong".

I am sorry to hear that your cancer came back after so long it must have been hard.. big mental hug..

R.B. · 06-25-2007, 05:12 PM

Full of beans

Thanks for the thanks.

re your comment

"The comments regarding the fact that oxidative process also exist in tumour cells is disturbing."

An alternative viewpoint would be that it leaves the door open to cell death by reactive oxygen species, bi products of cellular oxidation. I have seen suggestions DHA is key to oxidation effective oxidation and may assist in dysfunctional cell death. DHA also features in membranes and I have just read suggestions it is key to the functioning of lipid rafts, which are apparently key to membrane function.

So if DHA CoQ10 etc improve mitochondrial function through a number of mechanisms could they be an important factor in normalisation of cell function.

I see only ghosts of images but sorting out lipid levels and intakes would seem like a reasonable insurance strategy give the potential upsides.

This was thought provoking if you have not seen it.

http://her2support.org/vbulletin/sho...ught+provoking

Much is unknown and I know very very much less so please all discuss dietary changes with your doctor.

RB

R.B. · 07-08-2007, 09:32 AM

There has been much debate here on the need of the brain for glucose and how that relates to fats.

Triglycerides are a chemical storage system for fats. Fats are stored in threes a bit like toast in a rack. The rack is glycerol.

Wikipedia say that the backbone of triglycerides glycerol can be converted to glucose.

RB

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triglyceride

Cathya · 07-08-2007, 08:44 PM

Full of Beans;

I have fasted four times over the years for periods of about two weeks each time. My fasts were water fasts and other than walking most of the time during the fast was spent resting....we were even encouraged not to shower, use deoderant or dress in normal clothes. The theory was that when your body is not using food to walk, digest, etc. it will use it's energy to heal. Initially I really didn't know what to think but during my initial fast about three or four days in I started to bleed in my urine. I was told that I must have a blockage of some sort that was being expelled and the bleeding was this blockage cutting my urithra (don't know how to spell it...sorry)...and not to worry. there was no pain. Sure enough, the bleeding eventually stopped. After ten years of marriage I had not been able to get pregnant but upon completing this fast I became pregnant that month and have since had two children. Needless to say I am convinced about the power of fasting. I have watched people pass kidney stones......very painfully.... and seen many others (including cancer patients) fast.

I have been told and read in the books I have that fasting does not work for cancer. I really don't know. I do know that the last time I fasted was 8 years ago and although I did fast but only for 10 days I was in terrible pain and decided I would not attempt another. This was prior to my diagnosis by 5 years and I have suspected that it was caused by osteoperosis in my spine but I do wonder what it would be like to fast with cancer from that perspective.

I will also say that I have never felt better than I have after a fast. All of the toxins are washed away. It is very tiring though.

I will be very interested in hearing more about what you decide.

Best wishes,

Cathy

Cathya · 07-08-2007, 08:56 PM

Full of Beans;

Forgot to mention that when fasting your mouth becomes coated and your whole body smells as toxins are expelled. After about two or three days you have no hunger. Some people get sores on their skins or in their eyes, etc. from this process.....I have been fortunate. Also, if you are someone who eats a lot of meat or drinks a lot of coffee the withdrawal of these foods can cause headaches. When you have completed a full fast and are "purified", the smell goes away, your mouth clears, you become hungry again. At this point you must break the fast or your body will begin digesting itself as you discussed. I have often watched people on hunger strikes and thought about what a wonderful thing they are doing for themselves.....provided they stop the fast at the right time. The theory of fasting is one thing but the practicality of actually doing a fast when one is suffering from a serious illness is another.....the pain, fatique, and many other potential problems make me wonder if it is a good idea. It would be interesting to ask an expert.

Best regards,

Cathy

hutchibk · 07-10-2007, 09:07 PM

Thought I already posted this, but it musta got lost...

I don't think it has been mentioned, but perhaps the idea of fasting would not be wise if one is currently in chemo treatment...

Just (sugar free) food for thought. Please check with your doc first if you are thinking about it. I am guessing it would not be a healthy way to go.

Val Pfeiffer · 07-14-2007, 01:06 PM

THANKS for this discussion--it's reminded me that I have to get my act together. I can't fast (at 5'7" and 115# I can't afford it and I love to eat). However, I love to eat the wrong things. So far today Ive had a chocolate chip muffin and a dilly bar...I am most certainly a sugar addict.

I don't remember the details of a study a friend told me about -- something about injecting glucose right before chemo -- the glucose getting the cancer cells ready for a feast and then the chemo comes in and zaps them. Bottom line is that I totally believe that sugar feeds cancer cells and that avoiding foods high in sugar, especially high fructose corn syrup, is a must. Unfortunately, my belief doesn't always translate into actual sugar avoidance. But I was so close to stage 4 that I should be doing everything possible to prevent recurrence.

I wish I had a guardian angel on my shoulder every time donuts appeared at my workplace, or when I pull into the gas station in search of those Hostess little chocolate donuts...

Val