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12-04-2006, 08:05 PM
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#1
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: northshore suburb of chicago
Posts: 1,093
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echo vs muga
Before starting chemo, A/C, I had a muga and my score was 61%. Then I had another muga prior to Herceptin and it was 64%. I just had an echo and will get the results tomorrow. My onc wanted me to get an echo this time because he felt it gave more info than a muga as well as it being more accurate than a muga. Does anyone have any opinions on this or know of any documentation supporting one over the other? Thanks for your help once again.
__________________
~Rina~
Dx:3/06 had a lumpectomy April 19, 2006
Her2+ er/pr- Stage I Grade 3 tumor size 1.4 cm, node negative
AC 4 dense doses
34 radiation treatments including booster doses
receiving herceptin every 3 weeks since late August 2006 for 12 months
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12-04-2006, 09:19 PM
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#2
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 1,055
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Hi Rinaina,
I switched from muga to echo because the muga was making me claustrophobic and I saw others on board were doing echos.
I know my echo tech did complain that it was really hard to get a good view of my heart between my closely spaced ribs. I would guess bones are transparent to mugas.
I go in this week for another echo. I do find echos easier and less time consuming. I'll see if the tech knows what the difference is.
I'm curious too. BB
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12-04-2006, 09:46 PM
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#3
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Acworth, GA
Posts: 2,104
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I have been getting echocardiograms to monitor my LVEF since starting Herceptin. With the MUGA I believe that some sort of dye is inserted into your vein. As far as I know both tests give good results.
__________________
Kate
Stage IIIC Diagnosed Oct 25, 2005 (age 58)
ER/PR-, HER2+++, grade 3, Ploidy/DNA index: Aneuploid/1.61, S-phase: 24.2%
Neoadjunct chemo: 4 A/C; 4 Taxatore
Bilateral mastectomy June 8, 2006
14 of 26 nodes positive
Herceptin June 22, 2006 - April 20, 2007
Radiation (X35) July 24-September 11, 2006
BRCA1/BRCA2 negative
Stage IV lung mets July 13, 2007 - TCH
Single brain met - August 6, 2007 -CyberKnife
Oct 2007 - clear brain MRI and lung mets shrinking.
March 2008 lung met progression, brain still clear - begin Tykerb/Xeloda/Ixempra
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12-05-2006, 06:09 AM
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#4
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: northshore suburb of chicago
Posts: 1,093
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yes tousled, with the muga they have to take your blood and then mix it with some radioactive material and it has to sit and mix for a bit in the lab and then they re-inject it into you before doing the muga so it is a process and the muga definitely takes longer. supposedly the echo gives more info such as how the blood is flowing.
__________________
~Rina~
Dx:3/06 had a lumpectomy April 19, 2006
Her2+ er/pr- Stage I Grade 3 tumor size 1.4 cm, node negative
AC 4 dense doses
34 radiation treatments including booster doses
receiving herceptin every 3 weeks since late August 2006 for 12 months
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12-05-2006, 10:29 AM
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#5
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 30
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My onc. prefers an ECHO over a MUGA
Hi,
Initially when all this started I got MUGA's and they were too much of a hassel. I had really small, rolling veins and I used to leave there looking like a pin cushion.
I told my onc. and she said she preferred ECHO's over MUGA's anyway. She said they are show more.
I think an ECHO is the way to go.
Good luck!!!!
__________________
Only Positive Thoughts ++++++++++++++
-- Cathy34
Thanks to my wonderful husband Steve....I couldn't get through this without you!
Wife and mother to 3 wonderful kids - ages 9, 8 and 3
Dx April 2004
Her2+++,ER/PR--,28lymph nodes removed - 2+, no rads
Radical Mastectomy 5/2004
Recrunstruction 10/2004
Chemo ....
A/C/T
5 FU
Gemzar
Avastin
Xeloda
Navelbine
Herceptin
Doxil
Starting Tykerb Trial
Lung Mets
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12-05-2006, 10:45 AM
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#6
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: northshore suburb of chicago
Posts: 1,093
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Thanks Cathy and I agree with the muga's being a hassle. They take longer and why keep getting that radioactive junk injected into us, we have enough problems to deal with as it is. I did have to get an IV though for my echo in order for them to get good contrast but that was no big deal. Thanks for your input. I value the experience of the forum members.
__________________
~Rina~
Dx:3/06 had a lumpectomy April 19, 2006
Her2+ er/pr- Stage I Grade 3 tumor size 1.4 cm, node negative
AC 4 dense doses
34 radiation treatments including booster doses
receiving herceptin every 3 weeks since late August 2006 for 12 months
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12-05-2006, 01:25 PM
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#7
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Watkinsville, Georgia
Posts: 356
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Just a quick note...had a "false" low reading on MUGA (didn't know this could happen) & was on weekly Herceptin. Onc. insisted on ECHO (felt MUGA test was wrong) & didn't want my Herceptin interupted...had Echo, heart looked awesome and no MUGA's following only ECHO's. I was not in the HERA trial so he had freedom to do this. Personally LOVED the Echo; hated the MUGA and the sticking!
Ruth
__________________
[/SIGPIC]~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Diagnosed 6/03 nursing daughter
Dose dense A/C 4x
Modified rad mast 8/03
IDC; 3 cm; 10+/16 nodes; ER/PR-; Her2+++
Weekly taxol w/Herceptin (off label) 12x's
40 weeks Herceptin
Radiation 33x
Reconstruction w/ implants 05 & 07
NED
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12-05-2006, 06:12 PM
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#8
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Southern, CA
Posts: 2,511
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rinaina, I know I have always wondered which one actually is more accurate? The two oncologist I have had order ECHO's for me. When I first started it seemed more women on the boards were getting MUGA's. Its a toss up to me as to which might be better?
However one thing I like about getting an ECHO is no radioactive dye is being used. I get enough of that during PET/CT scans.
Let us know what the results of your first ECHO is when you find out. Good luck to you.
Chelee
__________________
DX: 12-20-05 - Stage IIIA, Her2/Neu, 3+++,Er & Pr weakly positive, 5 of 16 pos nodes.
Rt. MRM on 1-3-06 -- No Rads due to compromised lungs.
Chemo started 2-7-06 -- TCH - - Finished 6-12-06
Finished yr of wkly herceptin 3-19-07
3-15-07 Lt side prophylactic simple mastectomy. -- Ooph 4-05-07
9-21-09 PET/CT "Recurrence" to Rt. axllia, Rt. femur, ilium. Possible Sacrum & liver? Now stage IV.
9-28-09 Loading dose of Herceptin & started Zometa
9-29-09 Power Port Placement
10-24-09 Mass 6.4 x 4.7 cm on Rt. femur head.
11-19-09 RT. Femur surgery - Rod placed
12-7-09 Navelbine added to Herceptin/Zometa.
3-23-10 Ten days of rads to RT femur. Completed.
4-05-10 Quit Navelbine--Herceptin/Zometa alone.
5-4-10 Appt. with Dr. Slamon to see what is next? Waiting on FISH results from femur biopsy.
Results to FISH was unsuccessful--this happens less then 2% of the time.
7-7-10 Recurrence to RT axilla again. Back to UCLA for options.
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12-06-2006, 06:21 AM
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#9
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: northshore suburb of chicago
Posts: 1,093
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I agree with you Chelee about echo over muga simply because of the radioactive dye alone. It did seem like more people on here were getting mugas and that is one reason why I asked the question muga vs echo.
I got my echo results and my EF was 60% so I can continue on with herceptin knowing my heart is doing okay. Everything else was perfect too they said.
__________________
~Rina~
Dx:3/06 had a lumpectomy April 19, 2006
Her2+ er/pr- Stage I Grade 3 tumor size 1.4 cm, node negative
AC 4 dense doses
34 radiation treatments including booster doses
receiving herceptin every 3 weeks since late August 2006 for 12 months
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12-06-2006, 08:00 PM
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#10
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 1,055
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Tech had limited English so I didn't ask. It did occur to me that if you recently had surgery on the left side, you would not want them pressing the ECHO transducer into your surgical site. So perhaps once they start with MUGAs they stick with them. Hmm.
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12-07-2006, 12:46 AM
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#11
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Southern, CA
Posts: 2,511
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rinaina, Thats great to hear your ECHO was up enough to continue on herceptin. Its always nice to get good news. At least no inturruptions this way. I think Bev might be on to something when it comes to the MUGA's. Many women have bilat mastectomys or at least a left side mastectomy...so that would make it almost impossible to use a ECHO. She might be right as to why most oncologist seem to do MUGA's.
If your reading this Bev...that makes sense. I think you just might be right on the money here.
Chelee
__________________
DX: 12-20-05 - Stage IIIA, Her2/Neu, 3+++,Er & Pr weakly positive, 5 of 16 pos nodes.
Rt. MRM on 1-3-06 -- No Rads due to compromised lungs.
Chemo started 2-7-06 -- TCH - - Finished 6-12-06
Finished yr of wkly herceptin 3-19-07
3-15-07 Lt side prophylactic simple mastectomy. -- Ooph 4-05-07
9-21-09 PET/CT "Recurrence" to Rt. axllia, Rt. femur, ilium. Possible Sacrum & liver? Now stage IV.
9-28-09 Loading dose of Herceptin & started Zometa
9-29-09 Power Port Placement
10-24-09 Mass 6.4 x 4.7 cm on Rt. femur head.
11-19-09 RT. Femur surgery - Rod placed
12-7-09 Navelbine added to Herceptin/Zometa.
3-23-10 Ten days of rads to RT femur. Completed.
4-05-10 Quit Navelbine--Herceptin/Zometa alone.
5-4-10 Appt. with Dr. Slamon to see what is next? Waiting on FISH results from femur biopsy.
Results to FISH was unsuccessful--this happens less then 2% of the time.
7-7-10 Recurrence to RT axilla again. Back to UCLA for options.
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12-07-2006, 06:53 AM
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#12
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Acworth, GA
Posts: 2,104
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Chelee,
I had a bilateral mastectomy and my oncologist has always ordered echocardograms. I have no problem with getting the echo since my surgery. I had my surgery in June and had echos in July and October. I had large breasts (D cup) and now I think it's easier since they don't get in the way. I still think it's just a personal preference for the doctor as to whether you get a MUGA or echo.
__________________
Kate
Stage IIIC Diagnosed Oct 25, 2005 (age 58)
ER/PR-, HER2+++, grade 3, Ploidy/DNA index: Aneuploid/1.61, S-phase: 24.2%
Neoadjunct chemo: 4 A/C; 4 Taxatore
Bilateral mastectomy June 8, 2006
14 of 26 nodes positive
Herceptin June 22, 2006 - April 20, 2007
Radiation (X35) July 24-September 11, 2006
BRCA1/BRCA2 negative
Stage IV lung mets July 13, 2007 - TCH
Single brain met - August 6, 2007 -CyberKnife
Oct 2007 - clear brain MRI and lung mets shrinking.
March 2008 lung met progression, brain still clear - begin Tykerb/Xeloda/Ixempra
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12-07-2006, 08:00 AM
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#13
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: virginia
Posts: 99
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No sticks
The best thing about the ECHO.....is no sticks ! Also had a bilateral and it has not been a problem getting accurate ECHO. Sometime have to change position ... inhale and hold or exhale and hold. The ECHO is NO sticks and faster from start to finish.
Hugs, Bonnie
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12-07-2006, 04:35 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 144
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For some reason, my hospital will give a MUGA, unless you request an echo. The cynic in me thinks this is related to billing/insurance. My onc. was going to give me MUGAs, but thanks to this and other boards, I knew to ask for echos.
My understanding is that a MUGA gives you a precise number for the LEVF rate, whereas the echo is based on the technician's assessment, so it can be given as a range, e.g., 60-65.
For 4 of my echos, the technicians could get a rate, even though my ribs are close together. At my last echo, the technician wanted to inject some dye to get a better reading. Luckily, I'm at a small hospital and insisted I run upstairs to get my port accessed so they could use it.
- Anna
__________________
- Anna
Stage I - DX 9/2005 ER/PR-, HER2+, grade 3, DCIS, IDC multi-focal (1.05cm)
DD 4 A/C finished Jan 31, 2006
Herceptin weekly finished Jan 31, 2007
recurrence to chest wall on last month of Herceptin
Stage 3B - 3/15/07 - 2 carcinomas in dermal lymphatic
Rads finished 6/5/07
12x TH finished 9/10/07
12/07 - Clear scan!
3/08 - 4 month Melatonin trial
1/09 - osteoperosis - start Alendronate
2/09 - 4-month Simivastin trial
3/13 - take drug holiday after 5 years of Alendronate
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12-08-2006, 06:15 AM
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#15
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,380
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I just had my first MUGA since I started Herceptin (aprox. 3 months in) and the onc was disturbed that the LVEF dropped from 74 to 64. He wants yet ANTOHER MUGA, and, like most of you, I am tired of being stuck. I am going to call and see if we can get an ECHO instead. Thanks for bringing this issue to everyone's attention.
Hopeful
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12-08-2006, 07:14 AM
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#16
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: northshore suburb of chicago
Posts: 1,093
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Wow, an EF of 74 was really high to begin with, not that that is bad. A 64 EF is still considered to be very good. I was told that if it falls below 50 that is reason for concern. Mine was just 60% and I was told that is great so I wouldn't be too concerned. Perhaps the 74 was an error to begin with. Maybe repeat with an echo for clarification. Echo gives a lot more info than a muga as well. I don't think you have anything to worry about but then again, I am not a doctor.
__________________
~Rina~
Dx:3/06 had a lumpectomy April 19, 2006
Her2+ er/pr- Stage I Grade 3 tumor size 1.4 cm, node negative
AC 4 dense doses
34 radiation treatments including booster doses
receiving herceptin every 3 weeks since late August 2006 for 12 months
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12-08-2006, 07:31 AM
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#17
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,380
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Rinaina,
The onc did comment that 74 was high. I had both tests done at the same facility. I talked to the technician at length during the second test, and she explained to me that different sites use different computer programs to calculate the LVEF, so that if you have your tests done at different sites, there could be some inconsistent results. She said that with the program they use, the fields are set by the computer, but the operator has the opportunity to "correct" something that doesn't look right. I really know nothing about this equipment and how it works, so she lost me after a bit. I like the idea that the ECHO gives more information and does not involve nuclear medicine. I am defintely going to discuss with the doc. At this point I am not worried, just growing impatient with all these doctor visits and tests!
Hopeful
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12-08-2006, 07:43 AM
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#18
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: northshore suburb of chicago
Posts: 1,093
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Hopeful, I can relate when you say you are tired of it all. Hang in there though because you want to do whatever you can to help yourself fight this horrible disease. All the tests and doctors and treatments are for our own good, as frustrating as it can get sometimes. We just need to stay informed so we can be our own best advocate. That's why this forum and other sites are so helpful.
__________________
~Rina~
Dx:3/06 had a lumpectomy April 19, 2006
Her2+ er/pr- Stage I Grade 3 tumor size 1.4 cm, node negative
AC 4 dense doses
34 radiation treatments including booster doses
receiving herceptin every 3 weeks since late August 2006 for 12 months
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12-08-2006, 09:32 AM
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#19
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,380
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Sorry for complaining
Rinaina,
Thanks for the support; I am just a little overwhelmed with seasonal stuff, work, and now one more thing to add to the "to do" list. Most of the time, I feel very fortunate, grateful (and a little guilty) that I have access to the care that I do and insurance to help pay for it.
Have a great day!
Hopeful
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12-08-2006, 09:39 AM
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#20
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: northshore suburb of chicago
Posts: 1,093
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Don't feel guilty, just be thankful you do have the resources. I know I am. Have a great holiday season.
__________________
~Rina~
Dx:3/06 had a lumpectomy April 19, 2006
Her2+ er/pr- Stage I Grade 3 tumor size 1.4 cm, node negative
AC 4 dense doses
34 radiation treatments including booster doses
receiving herceptin every 3 weeks since late August 2006 for 12 months
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