If you starved cancer of glucose..

[fullofbeans]

how long would it take for the cancer cells to die?

Ok I know it might be a silly question. But I am wondering, if one was to fast (or go on an Atkins diet, I would definitly not advise this) would it starve off the cancer cells since cancer cells can only use glucose and since cancer is glucose greedy and require a lot of it, would it not die off after a reasonably short time? it seems so simple but conceptually quite sound..

There are some research being carried out and clinical trial researching this 'cancer buster' path for example by interfering with glycolysis:
http://www.thresholdpharm.com/sec/pipe_2deoxyglucose

http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/cg...ull/62/14/3909


Research is quite clear that elevated blood glucose is cancer factor as we all already know

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...=pubmed_docsum

I noticed that a lot of the supplement indicated for cancer (e.g. Reishi mushroom)have a tendency to reduce blood glucose

Any feedback on fasting/ breast cancer very welcome but for everyone the following is well worth reading;
http://faculty.washington.edu/ely/JOM1.html

Extract:"
Aggressive Glycemic Control in Humans and Animals
This simple Glucose Ascorbate Antagonism theory gives rise naturally to "Aggressive Glycemic Control" (AGC) as a modality that, properly used, appears to have much value against the disorders named above. The main features were: (1) planned ³primitive diet² with reduction of caloric intake (and minimizing refined carbohydrate, rCHO); (2) ascorbic acid (40 milligrams/kg or more, tid); and (3) planned increase in exercise to bring blood glucose into the 75 mg% range (or as low as possible without stress). In 1978 and 1979, two stage-4 breast cancer patients with large tumor burdens, worsening rapidly ("one month" prognoses) although already on chemotherapy, elected to use AGC and both became tumor free in six months (reaching normal weight by losing 40 and 60 pounds respectively) and were still alive in 1992. At least three other humans have been observed to experience rapid tumor-free recoveries from advanced cancer while undergoing insulin-coma therapy, originally planned for their psychoses (Koroljow 1962; and pvt. commun.). An American Cancer Society Institutional Research Committee (at Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center and the University of Washington) approved AGC as a research topic in 1983. We were able to reproduce the human result strikingly in an animal model showing strong glycemic modulation of tumor tolerance (Santisteban 1985). The very significantly different (p<.005) mortalities in three groups of mice, 70 days after injection with an aggressive mammary tumor, were: (1) 16 of 24 (slightly) hyperglycemic mice (GHb 5.36); 8 of 24 normoglycemic (GHb 4.67); and (3) only 2 of 20 hypoglycemic (GHb 3.69)."


Many thanks for your comments

[Becky]

However, all food ingested gets converted to glucose - it is the only fuel all cells of the body use - normal cells and cancer cells. Everything you eat - meat, cheese etc gets converted. The conversion is faster (sweets, fruit, refined carbs), moderate (whole grains, veggies, beans, squashes) or slow (meat, eggs, fats). Slow conversion is what one wants in order to be able to better regulate insulin output in the body - therefore moderate and slow foods with low glycemic index are best. And eatting high glycemic foods (to include fruit) should be done with the slower foods to get a mashed "mix" in the stomach to slow down the sugar rush into the bloodstream.

So, if you really try to starve cancer, you might also starve yourself.

[fullofbeans]

Thanks for your answer Becki, but I am afraid I have to disagree;

Glucose is regarded as the preferred energy source for all cells in the body with ketosis (fat burning) being regarded as a crisis reaction of the body to a lack of carbohydrates in the diet.

Glucose is be used by all cells but in order to burn fat you need to enter the krebs cycle (aerobic process). Most cancer cells only uses anaerobic processes (Glycolysis).

Once glycogen store have been used up after about 48 hours, the adult brain starts burning ketones in order to more directly utilize the energy from the fat stores that are being depended upon, and to reserve the glucose only for its absolute needs, thus avoiding the depletion of the body's protein store in the muscles.

Alaska Angel posted about this trial a while ago, where they put people on an Atkins diet (kind of), so I would not be so quick at dismissing whole idea if they have bothered studying this idea:
http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/gui...4054?order=100

This kind of diet high fats and proteins medically can be referred to as ketogenic diet as the effect of reproducing body under fasting condition. Please at this point fasting (use of fatty reserves) must not be confused with starvation.

Secondly Anaerobic pathways (without oxygen) yield 2 ATP’s per unit of glucose. This is the type of pathway that most cancers utilise. Aerobic pathways (with oxygen) yield 32 ATP’s, a much more efficient system. Normal cells utilise the aerobic pathways, therefore in period of low blood sugar your normal body cells should survive much much longer than abnormal cells.

Other benefit of fasting includes regeneration of organs such as liver through rest, increase of immune system (80% usually used in digestive purpose).
I think have just convinced myself..:-)

[R.B.]

http://faculty.washington.edu/ely/JOM1.html

Is the "primitive diet" not multifactoral in its impact?. Clearly metabolism change (which involves a host of mechanisms) will be one impact , but there will be a host of others for most to including lipids, sodium, acid balance etc.

Dietary change is clearly a recognised potential strategy for risk reduction, and some of the suggested risk reduction factors are not insignificant 50-70% for various facets.

There are lots of posts on diet on this site. Balancing omega three and six is another area you might find interesting.

Please discuss any significant dietary changes with your medical adviser.


RB

[fullofbeans]

Dear R.B

I agree about balancing omega 3 &6. As I agree about eating veg and fruits for antioxidant etc..

And of course I agree with all the previous postings regarding sustainable long term diet (complex sugar, veg etc..). and agree with Becki to keep a low blood sugar, & about GI
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...=pubmed_docsum


However i must insist that fasting is a total different discussion in nature to the above, it is about a short (few weeks) 'treatment'.

Since posting I have found accounts of autolytic disintegration of tumours inc. malignant (absorbed by the body as food during fasting). I know 'accounts' as oppose to trials will not count as valid on this site and I agree one should always be careful about these. However issues about sugar & cancer as mainly been ignored by the medical world until quite recently. In my first thread in this post I have mentioned a few studies starting to use this weakness. Only 2 ATP (energy unit) from Glycolisis (fermentation) makes cancer cell very sugar hungry indeed (PET scan principle) compared to 32 ATP derived from Kreps cycle.

My chemo was to give an extra 13% chance that cancer would not recur..I do not think that fasting is the answer at 100% but perhaps it may work sometimes which would explain cases of remission when people are close to death (and close to starvation). Fasting as been use since antiquities to heal and is part of many religious practice.

Regarding asking my doctors. The last time I saw my surgeon he said to me 'you will recur', which I thought it was really nasty and uncessary, especially when he knows how much I invested myself to become a NED (I designed my own prog was told that nothing could be done). When I saw my oncologist and asked him what monitoring program was planned he said that they would scan when I could feel something is wrong, they stopped doing blood samples and I had to request to carry on with scans and tumour markers. Brain MRI is a no no and I will have to fake a headache, this is the UK you know.. Pet scan is a unreachable dream..Cancer patients have much less chance of long term survival here than in the US or Western Europe..The food available in the wards consist of sugary treats and white bread sandwiches with more E numbers than toppings...

[Carolyns]

Full of Beans,

It sounds interesting. Are you planning on fasting? I have only done it for very short periods.

Interesting topic.

Love, Hope, and Peace,

Carolyns

[Adriana Mangus]

What your doctor is telling you regarding a recurrence, no one is guaranteed anything in life :-) I was supposed to be cancer "free" after five years, here am after almost 10 years from original dx battling bc again-see my profile-. Your doctor is an IDIOT and should not be practicing medicine, especially Oncology. Please keep us posted.

P.S. Can you switch doctors?

[R.B.]

The flow of events is sometimes beguiling.

I ask a question raised by your post go off to look for something else and up it pops or at least part.

It does recognise BC lines have abnormal energy utilisation.

There are several trials on fats and BC herceptin consideration of lipid rafts etc. So it would look as if fats and particularly omega three and six are part of this some how.

I have only skimmed this but it seems to be saying that the boundaries between non-oxygen and fat burning cancer is not as clear cut as commonly suggested - AND that whilst some may be irreparably damaged some my just have had the fat supply line cut / higher demand / insufficient supply.


More questions than answers - There are not enough hours in the day to read everything!

RB


http://content.febsjournal.org/cgi/c...ull/274/6/1393

"In early studies on energy metabolism of tumor cells, it was proposed that the enhanced glycolysis was induced by a decreased oxidative phosphorylation. Since then it has been indiscriminately applied to all types of tumor cells that the ATP supply is mainly or only provided by glycolysis, without an appropriate experimental evaluation".....................

"All tumor cell types show an enhanced glycolytic flux; however, not all have a diminished mitochondrial metabolic capacity. Therefore, the take-home message is that not all tumor cell types depend exclusively on glycolysis for ATP supply; some may equally or predominantly rely on oxidative phosphorylation. In consequence, the driving force for the enhanced glycolysis in tumor cells cannot be an energy deficiency induced only by a damaged oxidative phosphorylation. The accelerated cellular proliferation may also impose an energy deficiency (as well as a higher demand for glycolytic and Krebs cycle biosynthetic intermediaries), which can only be covered by an increased glycolysis together with an unperturbed oxidative phosphorylation."

[Becky]

Just to shake this thread up a bit... it can all work until mutation takes place or there are some cells in a tumor that are Grade 1 - aka - almost like normal cells. Then what. Just because a tumor is Grade 2 or 3 doesn't mean ALL the cells are... If your tumor is 50% ER+ it means 50% of the cells have too many Estrogen receptors - not all the cells. Therefore, most cancer cells might need glucose (and lots of it) or lots of the insulin that the glucose makes the body secrete. Maybe other cells in the tumor LOVE corn oil. So, the glucose lovers die but the others survive (are resistant to your lack of sugar attempt) and those that survive do tend (in my research) be the slower to divide (and therefore more resistant to therapy of any kind because therapies (chemo, radiation etc) kill the fast to divide types... maybe the shear theory behind any resistance.

Comments? I hope so.

[Liz J.]

Hi all,

I am not sure if I missed anything on this particular subject, but my son was checking this out and said that he has heard that high fructose corn syrup is a culprit. Does anyone have any info on that?

Thank you.

Liz J.

[Becky]

Both corn syrup and high fructose corn syrup are converted to glucose as soon as it hits your stomach - as is fructose (fruit sugar) and sucrose (good ole table sugar).

[Adriana Mangus]

I do not have the brains to digest all this information. But here's

I'm the youngest of 3 sisters and the only one with breast cancer, I have never been into sweets, like the other two sisters, however am the only one stricken with cancer. Mother just turn 85 yrs old -healthy- no blood pressure, cholesterol, diabetes, etc.

Also, I have been the only one of the sisters to have practicec some type of exercise since I was 18-19 yrs old, running, playing basketball, voleyball, etc. Later in life I practiced Jazzercise, Yoga, Tai Chi or is this the tea? LOL. The other 2 have never, ever practiced any type of exercise, to the contrary then can, each; eat a box of chocolates,
-actually they have- so I do not get it. ??

P.S. This past Holidays Mom asked for a desert after dinner, when she found out that it consisted of a very sweet pie-Jewish Walnut Cake, she asked for a cup of coffee w/o sugar, as she was concerned with DIABETES!! We all laughed so hard!!!! Mom has always poured tons of sugar in her coffee, that night all of a sudden she got concerned about her health!!!

[dlaxague]

Lots of great points and questions. Thanks to all who are participating, and thinking, thinking.

High fructose corn syrup is just one more quickly-digested sugar bolus, completely devoid of any other useful nutrients. Even the best organic fruit juice is not much better, from a carbohydrate perspective (same issue with quickly digested bolus of glucose). Our bodies were not designed to handle large amounts of simple carbs all at once. Also, we can have significant insulin overproduction/resistance going on without (yet) having elevated serum glucose levels and frank type II diabetes.

The trial of mice and people that looks at levels of glucose and/or ketogenesis could still be linked to my insulin overproduction/resistance discussion, since the body does produce insulin in response to blood sugar levels.

My personal thoughts, totally unencumbered by evidence, are that fasting will not make any difference (at least not for the reason you surmise - lowering blood sugar). In the absence of insulin resistance and/or high sugar boluses, blood sugar is maintained fairly tightly by the body and can never drop below a minimum because all cells, not just cancer, would not survive. When I read that cancer uses more glucose, that does not mean to me that it needs higher levels of glucose to thrive, but simply that it siphons off more than the other cells do, whatever the serum value of glucose at the time. And as the glucose is used (metabolized), whether by normal cells or by cancer cells, the body, thru several different mechanism of regulation, insures that the serum glucose is maintained so that energy is always available.

Debbie Laxague

[Becky]

Great points Debbie. Also - it just occurred to me that the only fuel the brain can use is glucose, period. So the body does need to maintain some minimum level because if the brain can't function neither can the body. However, maintaining a diet that has a low glycemic index overall (ie: eat fruit with the main meal that is high in fiber and other lower glycemic foods) is the best way to go overall for good health.

[danceswithrain]

This is a very interesting post! Really gets one thinking. My PET scan done just after my biospy and before chemo showed no cancer. Only inflamation from the biopsy. I am a Stage 3a with lymph node involvement. I am also borderline diabetic. Does this mean my cancer isn't using much sugar? They said it has a low metabiolic rate. Yet before chemo my tumor was growing very fast.
curiouser and curiouser.

[fullofbeans]

Hi All

Firstly thank you R.B for your post and the extremely interesting paper:
http://content.febsjournal.org/cgi/c...ull/274/6/1393

The comments regarding the fact that oxidative process also exist in tumour cells is disturbing. But as mentioned in the video the mutation in the hypoxic zone are the one to watch for, these are the cells that will eventually become undifferentiated and resistant to any treatment. So the way I see if you can rid of them only it is already progress.

Secondly it will varie from people to people as we all know a drug works on someone and not on someone else who has the same cancer, subtle variation in mutation is the likely explanation.

Anyhow I will print that paper and give it great consideration and you are right there is not enough time to read everything. I need to revise on my biochemistry..

I had prepared an answer about the use of Ketone body by the brain (when fasting) not just glucose but just notice that R.B has been on the case..

In reply to R.B about time frame : 24 hour. Glycogene store (3%) of liver weight are used used within 24hour after which ketogenesis occurs. Protein is not broken down to produce glucose until there are no fat left effectively when you are starving not fasting (using fat reserve). Maintenance of blood glucose is a difficult mechanism which is still poorly understood and I have emailed someone about it as I want to underrstand it more. But in the meantime it is sufficient to know that glucose is no longer used when fasting because hormonal changes depresses insulin production by feedback mecanism (therefore if your cancer cell is sentive to insulin then you are still helping, the way I see it). And providing that you are not exercising above ketogenis level (i.e. do not require glucose) i.e. not running for long ect then glucose is likely to be left untouched. You can walk for many hours and still not require glucose however if you need to exercise because say you are running away from an attack, adrenaline will save the day..but I will stop here basically take home message if you are fasting to cut off glucose availability do not exercise hard since lactic acid can be transformed back into glucose, one would presume to allow us to run away from life threatening situation..god we are so well made!!

Adrianna: Regarding the comment from my surgeon I agree he is an idiot, but perhaps he has spurred on a awareness of my precarious condition and therefore a new fight in me by using every available knowledge I have accumulated..I was starting to be slack with my diet.. when he said that I answered " I hope that I will prove you wrong".

I am sorry to hear that your cancer came back after so long it must have been hard.. big mental hug..

[R.B.]

Full of beans

Thanks for the thanks.

re your comment

"The comments regarding the fact that oxidative process also exist in tumour cells is disturbing."

An alternative viewpoint would be that it leaves the door open to cell death by reactive oxygen species, bi products of cellular oxidation. I have seen suggestions DHA is key to oxidation effective oxidation and may assist in dysfunctional cell death. DHA also features in membranes and I have just read suggestions it is key to the functioning of lipid rafts, which are apparently key to membrane function.

So if DHA CoQ10 etc improve mitochondrial function through a number of mechanisms could they be an important factor in normalisation of cell function.

I see only ghosts of images but sorting out lipid levels and intakes would seem like a reasonable insurance strategy give the potential upsides.

This was thought provoking if you have not seen it.

http://her2support.org/vbulletin/sho...ught+provoking

Much is unknown and I know very very much less so please all discuss dietary changes with your doctor.


RB

[R.B.]

This is what wikipedia had to say re ketosis.

Complicated as usual.

I have not checked further but according to the below the brain can burn Ketones in part.

Fats can be used as an alternate fuel.

Protein etc can be converted to make glucose.

So a fast would presumably reduce glucose consumption but to what extent and in what time frame etc is not clear.





"When glycogen stores are not available in the cells (glycogen is primarily created when carbohydrates such as starch and sugar are consumed in the diet), fat (triacylglycerol) is cleaved to give 3 fatty acid chains and 1 glycerol molecule in a process called lipolysis. Most of the body is able to utilize fatty acids as an alternative source of energy in a process where fatty acid chains are cleaved to form acetyl-CoA, which can then be fed into the Krebs Cycle. During this process a high concentration of glucagon is present in the serum and this inactivates glucose kinase causing most cells in the body to use fatty acids as their primary energy source. At the same time, glucose is synthesized in the liver from lactic acid, glucogenic amino acids, and glycerol, in a process called gluconeogenesis. This glucose is used exclusively for energy by cells such as neurons and red blood cells.[citation needed]"

"If the diet is changed from a highly glycemic diet to a diet that does not substantially contribute to blood glucose, the body goes through a set of stages to enter ketosis. During the initial stages of this process the adult brain does not burn ketones, however the newborn brain makes immediate use of this important substrate for lipid synthesis in the brain. After about 48 hours of this process, the adult brain starts burning ketones in order to more directly utilize the energy from the fat stores that are being depended upon, and to reserve the glucose only for its absolute needs, thus avoiding the depletion of the body's protein store in the muscles."

[R.B.]

There has been much debate here on the need of the brain for glucose and how that relates to fats.

Triglycerides are a chemical storage system for fats. Fats are stored in threes a bit like toast in a rack. The rack is glycerol.

Wikipedia say that the backbone of triglycerides glycerol can be converted to glucose.

RB

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triglyceride

[Cathya]

Full of Beans;

I have fasted four times over the years for periods of about two weeks each time. My fasts were water fasts and other than walking most of the time during the fast was spent resting....we were even encouraged not to shower, use deoderant or dress in normal clothes. The theory was that when your body is not using food to walk, digest, etc. it will use it's energy to heal. Initially I really didn't know what to think but during my initial fast about three or four days in I started to bleed in my urine. I was told that I must have a blockage of some sort that was being expelled and the bleeding was this blockage cutting my urithra (don't know how to spell it...sorry)...and not to worry. there was no pain. Sure enough, the bleeding eventually stopped. After ten years of marriage I had not been able to get pregnant but upon completing this fast I became pregnant that month and have since had two children. Needless to say I am convinced about the power of fasting. I have watched people pass kidney stones......very painfully.... and seen many others (including cancer patients) fast.

I have been told and read in the books I have that fasting does not work for cancer. I really don't know. I do know that the last time I fasted was 8 years ago and although I did fast but only for 10 days I was in terrible pain and decided I would not attempt another. This was prior to my diagnosis by 5 years and I have suspected that it was caused by osteoperosis in my spine but I do wonder what it would be like to fast with cancer from that perspective.

I will also say that I have never felt better than I have after a fast. All of the toxins are washed away. It is very tiring though.

I will be very interested in hearing more about what you decide.

Best wishes,

Cathy