low fat and recurrence

[Mary Jo]

Good Morning Everyone,

For those of you who are "into" the diet aspect of cancer please help me to understand and do what's best for my body.

At Breastcancer.org I was reading an "ask the expert" segment and it was mentioned that "recent studies suggest that 66 percent of women with hormone receptor NEGATIVE cancers lower their risk of recurrence by eating low fat. Man, that is huge............................and makes me stand up and take notice. SIXTY SIX PERCENT. Wow!

I am an avid exerciser BUT eat pretty much what I want. I am aware of what I am putting in my mouth and do try to watch the fat and sugar BUT didn't think it really mattered anyway....................so I took the "whatever" approach.

I am not naive and understand that women who were vegans got breast cancer also. Women who changed their diet after successful treatment also had recurrence BUT I can't get past the 66 pecent. I'll never forget at my first oncology visit with my Dr. (who is a breast cancer survivor as well)when she talked about diet and said that "even though diet hasn't been proved to have a roll in breast cancer there are things that point us in that direction" Then she went on to say something like ......... "you need to eat but you need to eat to live and said something like starvation isn't good but next to that" I'll never forget that word "starvation." I felt like she was trying to tell me to eat but to eat only what I needed to be healthy and to avoid the rest........................

So, someone please help me understand what's best for our diets IN UNDERSTANDABLE terms. I'd appreciate those of you are up on that most recent study to share what you know.

Is it best to eat NO sugar or minimul and low fat. Fruits and vegatable no meat or what. I am not a fish eater. I do eat nuts. What about things like potato chips that are made with good oils now and have no trans fat. I'm totally confused. Is trans fat what we should be looking at?

I'd appreciate your expertise in this area.

Mary Jo

[KellyA]

I need help here too, Mary Jo. There are different degrees of healthy- low fat, no fat, no trans fat, broiling meat, eating no meat- don't even get me started on the starvation part. This one's going to be hard. After having an eating disorder for 15 years and finally getting past my hangups, I'll be the first to admit that someone up above is challenging me on this one.

Does anyone know exactly how many fat grams we're supposed to try and stay under? I've been using lots of olive oil- do I need to cut back? Good grief- I guess I got what I asked for, I've complained that I have "no control" with this disease and now feel like it is all in my lap. 66% is ALOT!!!!!!!! Add the Herceptin and the walking, and there are some good odds.

Love, Kelly

[R.B.]

Diet and disease is a huge topic and very much under debate.

We are all different and there are no absolutes.

You might like to look athe "breast cancer diet" post. You can search by clicking on search above.

You may also find the posts on omega three and six fats interesting. It should answer some of your questions. You will find quite a lot of material has already been posted.

Foods do alter the way we express our genes (which includes HER 2 BRAC etc) - so food can arguably make a difference.

A french trial where breast fats were analysed at the same time as excission showed women in the third with the highest levels of omega three had a 70% lower chance of the lumops being invasive than the third with the lowest quantity of long chain omoega threes.

Fats are fundamental in body chemistry.

Unfortunately until sufficient money is put into approriate trials we will not have definative answers.

Please talk to you advisors about significant dietary change.

RB

[RhondaH]

I believe that it is not only what you DON'T put in your body, but what you do. Since dx 2/1/05 I have been doing the Breast Cancer Diet and have posted it here. Yes, it IS overwhelming in the beginning, but now it is second nature and not only do I put at least 9 fruits and vegetables a day in my body, but many days closer to 11-16. I will start a new post of the diet AND I will post the checklist I made up in the beginning to help me until I got used to it (don't use it now except for a grocery list). This is just what I "typically" do. When I wake up I drink a TBS of olive oil (this is just extra insurance for the HER2). I then walk 2 miles on the treadmill (this was my after chemo present to myself and recently have begun jogging as I just had an echo stress test and the techs said they had to work me extra hard to get my heart rate to where they wanted it...my heart is VERY healthy and I have low blood pressure). After, I make a cup of black tea (Lani just did a post that black tea may be a benefit to HER2, but one day a week I drink AM detox and THEN have my black tea) AND I make a dble carafe (actually its 2 of my 4 servings) of green tea to drink on my way to work. I then make the phytochemical shake that is in the diet. I eat EVERYTHING that the diet lists as I believe that not any ONE food is the "magic bullet", but EVERY food has it's merit. I literally have a HUGE freezer of organic blueberries, raspberries, blackberries and strawberries (when you buy them direct from the farmer, they are actually CHEAPER than the non organic that are bought in the store) and I rotate each one so that when I use up the bag of blueberries, I then open a bag of raspberries (you also have to understand that I have OCD as well). I also put the garbanzo beans in my shake as I don't care for them much). My 6 yo son likes the shake and is even learning how to make it. For breakfast I have either whole wheat cereal, toast or we like homemade oatmeal w/ raisins, brown sugar and cinnamon (being made from scratch it doesn't have the preservatives AND most everything I buy is organic...I made the decision when I was dx that I would rather spend my money on quality groceries rather than expensive clothes, etc), grape juice and a fruit. I pack my lunch which consists of 2 fruits (one for morning and afternoon...remember, I've already had 4 servings of fruit/veg in my smoothie, my grape juice and a fruit for breakfast making a total of 6 already), MWF I take a handful of filberts (I read an article that said that these have some of the properties of Taxol...so I feel I'm getting chemo on these days), whole wheat crackers (this makes 2 servings what with my breakfast), a salad using one of the dark greens (kale, collards, swiss chard, spinach, romaine...these I also rotate and when one is used up, use a DIFFERENT one), a cruciferous ( brussell sprouts, cabbage, cauliflower, broccoli...again rotate when one is used up), tomato, almond slices, tumeric, oregano (I believe good for lung mets), szechuan pepper (I posted an article a while back that it is good for HER2, I'll bump it back up) and once a week I put schiitake mushrooms and artichokes on it (now with my morning fruit and salad, I've had 11-12 servings). The dressing I make is from scratch (except I use Good Seasonings mix, olive oil AND I do a sweet sour adding a TBS brown sugar and a TBS soy sauce to the bottle as the salad CAN be quite bitter, but I believe this has a lot to do with the health problems and I'll explain further.) When you go grocery shopping, have you EVER looked in your cart and or others carts and noticed what they are buying (weekly shopping, not just an item or two). It's AMAZING, but MANY peoples carts have only 1 or 2 FRESH fruits and veg (if that) and everything is processed, packaged, sugar, high fat...etc. Like mom and I say, I have a LOT of groceries every week, but I have a LOT of fresh fruits and veg every week. Back to the cruciferous concept. Prior to my dx, I used to BINGE on candy (I thought for SURE I would one day become a diabetic and even with all the heart problems on my dads side of the family, THIS was my bad habit...I would eat candy like a smoker would smoke cigarettes). When I was younger I was thin, BUT my dad would hide candy bars (he ALSO had a major sweet tooth and was diabetic...when he got his terminal heart dx and I was caring for him, when I would go down to see him he would ask that I bring some Krispy Kreme donuts and when I would get there he would eat one and "for fun" would THEN want to check his sugar...he was somewhat of a sadist) and when I got old enough to go to the store by myself, I used to buy a BAG of Reeses cups, bring them home and eat the whole bag before dinner and hide the bags under my bed and this I kept up on and off until dx. I remember once being hospitalized for testing as I "literally" wouldn't have a bowel movement for 3 weeks (I often think of all the toxins that would be floating in my body when this would happen). I used to have bad heart burn (had my gall bladder taken out 6/01, but understand that I am allergic to fowl AND until just prior to my dx, fish so my diet consisted ONLY of beef and pork...not good) and found a book called 7 weeks to a better stomach and the ONE thing it recommended (this was the ONLY thing that worked for me...not even antacids)...cabbage juice. HORRIBLE stuff (and I now know what the smell is behind restaurant dumpsters), but it works. Think about it...how many people eat or LIKE to eat the bitter, cruciferous vegetables? Few to none and it's THESE I feel are what are helping to keep "harmony" in our body. I remember my fathers doctor (who is Asian) recommending that I get some "bitter melon" and give it to my dad to help with his diabetes and I've noticed several articles recently talking about this. I have a cup of green tea with my salad (have read that drinking it WITH food, helps the absorption) and another cup of this AND black tea after lunch(don't drink much water as I'm TOO busy drinking tes. I have a fruit (the fruits I eat are whatever is in season) in the afternoon (now up to 13 servings). Mom and I rotate kitchen and laundry duties and on the weeks I cook, being a single mom who works full time, I do all my cooking on the weekend and we eat leftovers during the week. I cook 2 meals on Sat and 1 on Sun as well as make our "treat" for the week (I make either a pie, cookies, bars, crumble, etc AND I eat only 1 a week and save the rest for other weeks, so I am not baking EVERY week...this is our TREAT). An example of a weekly menu is: Salmon, Butternut squash, Green Beans (I do have a glass of 1% milk with supper); Minestrone soup (I always double the recipe and freeze the extra so some weeks, I have one less meal to make AND it's great if there is an after school program going on); Spaghetti (we DO eat beef or pork once or twice a week...since this ALSO is a treat and so that we are not "deprived" we each take turns making the selection so that if we have a "taste for something" we can enjoy. For desert I have a fruit ( ONE day a week...generally Sun, is our "treat day" and for example for brunch((we only eat 2 BIG meals and maybe popcorn on Sun...this is something we have done since I was little)) we are having French toast and sausage ((I only eat 1/2 of one)) and Salmon for supper. So by the end of the day I have had 15-16 fruits and veg... I'm NEVER hungry as I am eating all the time. Also, put Burts Bees diaper ointment on my feet (I know Gina prefers the Desitin, but I'm an organic girl) for the Zinc, take a Magnesium, CoQ10, A & D (take an extra D during daylight savings time) supplements. Diana Dyer (the 3 time cancer survivor/dietician who WROTE the Breast Cancer diet has told me she has heard positive things regarding the WHEL study (though the results haven't come out yet...I'll post information on this as well). Well, I know this is a long post (I had better copy and paste just to make sure I don't lose it), but I figure I haven't posted much lately. Take care and God bless.

Rhonda

[Mary Jo]

Oh my gosh Rhonda...................I am ABSOLUTELY overwhelmed. ABSOLUTELY! I think (now how did I get this font style - hehe) I'll need a full time job to be able to afford this approach.

Sincerely, I am overwhelmed. For starters I think I will concentrate first and foremost on elimating MUCH of the sugar from my diet. I will concentrate on my fruits and veggies MAINLY for right now.

You are such a SWEETIE in sharing SO MUCH information. I look forward to learning more BUT will continue to TRUST in the ONE who knows everything and Has a plan for me. That's the only thing that keeps me truly SANE.

I still am STANDING UP AND TAKING NOTICE at that number 66 percent. Man oh man, that is huge. I'll learn all I can and do my best. I guess that's all any of us can and TRY to do. Right.

God Bless you all,

Mary Jo

[RhondaH]

no you wouldn't. ACTUALLY, Consumer Reports has an article regarding the things you REALLY should buy organic.

(http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/f...view/index.htm

I just CHOOSE to eat exclusively organic. REALLY, my grocery bill is about 1.5 times what it used to be (and in the summer, I buy from the Farmers Market and it is VERY cheap...can buy a HUGE bag of groceries for $5 OR you could join a CO-OP, so in the end, it pretty much balances itself out). Yes, I TOO put my hands in the one above, but I also feel he helps us by, helping us help ourselves. Yes, it IS overwhelming, but I figured I abused my body the FIRST 40 yrs of my life, I was going to treat it w/ TLC the remaining 40+ years DO start small and use the diet as a "guide". ACTUALLY, coming off chemo (I tried doing the diet while going through chemo...had diareah (sp) for 24 hrs...had to stop), I WEANED myself back on it it, by adding something new each week. Every little thing you do will add up. Take care and God bless.

Rhonda

[Becky]

Mary Jo


The Wins study you are referring to is well documented. I saw this presentation not only at San Antonio Dec 06 but also at the June 06 ASCO.

The beauty of ASCO was they had a "Lifestyle" block of presentations. The Wins study, the Exercise "MET" study and one on the role of body fat/location/glycemic index (and general weight loss).

The Wins study that you are referring to was one that (at ASCO), I asked 2 questions to the presenter and Kim from CT (aka Mamacze) also asked questions.

In the WINS study, those who benefit the best are ER/PR neg but having at least one receptor negative GREATLY impacts the results (40% for ER+ but PR- and 51% for ER- but PR+). ER/PR+ is only 21% (and is not statistically significant).

Fat grams need to be less than 20g per day. Kim asked how this is possible - the answer is no animal products - vegan is best. I asked - did they monitor or control the type of fat - answer - no they didn't but most did come from vegetable sources. I asked - did they or will they look into the role of balancing Omega 3 to 6. Answer - no but the investigator said this is a HUGE consideration for the future as most studies deal with adding Omega 3 but not balancing which he felt is key.

At SABCS (just a couple of weeks ago) the same presenter presented the updated data (initially the ER/PR neg reduction was 44%). Questions posed were what he thought the mechanism is (as most would think that the hormone positive women would do the best (as fat makes estrogen). He thought that it had to do with IGF (insulin growth factor). It is known that some bc has these receptors and any woman who is ER/PR neg probably has something else positive to make the cancer go (especially triple negatives as they just haven't found the "go" receptor(s) for them). This taken in context of the Exercise "MET" study that shows that 5 hours of moderate exercise (walking) reduces the recurrence rate of ER/PR neg by 50% starts to really hit the IGF theory home. Low Fat/Good Carbs diet and exercising increases the body to utilize lower amounts of insulin, reduces and resolves metabolic syndrome and reduces abdominal fat. The Glycemic index study shows the same thing - reduce bad carbs and sugar so your body doesn't have a sugar spike that forces an insulin rush.

Exercise and a proper diet makes good sense regardless on whether or not it does anything for recurrence rates (although plain ole logic tells one it should). If anything else, you will be healthier to whether any storm that gets thrown to you. In theory, most of us should do very well in regard to not recurring. However, most of us are in our 30s and 40s where other illnesses (like heart disease) can strike when we are older and diet and exercise will also greatly curtail this and other diseases that can be modified with diet/exercise (so why not cancer too).

[Mary Jo]

Thank you Rhonda and Becky,


I agree WHOLE HEARTILY with both of you (FROM WHAT I CAN UNDERSTAND -anyway - hehe). I, do try to eat right and I am an avid exerciser. Four miles a day walking - powerwalking and a bit of jogging thrown in for good measure. (But I did that before breast cancer as well - years before) I do pay attention to my fruits and veggies BUT know that I eat way too many sugary sweets. That is the area I am going to concentrate on for the most part (as Rhonda says - start small)

I appreciate your expertise in this area and I appreciate your detailed response.

Love you guys,

Mary Jo

[AlaskaAngel]

After reading with appreciation Becky's post, all I can say is...

How hard is it to grasp that breast cancer is an endocrine disease? How long is it going to be before they get around to putting endocrinologists on bc study committees, including on each tumor board?

AlaskaAngel

[RobinP]

I agree that the vegs and fruits with low fat is the key to generalized health as well as breast health. Certainly the WINS study supports a low fat diet for those who are hormonal negative. I also think that the type of oil we have in our diet as her+ should include olive oil. If you are a fish lover, omega 6 is great the heart as well imflammatory processes like her2. As far as sugar goes, too much of it unfortuately turns into fat and increases the IGR as Becky mentioned which may be a bad thing for a lot of us Her2+.

HMM...Cocoa is something to enjoy. And
cocoaflavanols and procyanidins may modulate inflammation.For example, there is emerging evidence that flavanols and procyanidinscan suppress the production of the proinflammatory cytokines , enhance the production of the antiinflammatorycytokine IL-4 and positively modulate transforming growth factor-ß₁and tumor necrosis factor- concentrations .