In vitro/vivo trial Curcumin and/or Herceptin
 

In-vitro and In-Vivo Comparison Study – potential utility of Curcumin on Her2+ Breast Cancer by a Taiwan hospital

http://www.abstracts2view.com/sabcs1...hp?nu=P2-21-01

this material was presented by a Taiwan hospital in the recently conducted San Antonio Breast Cancer Symposium (December 2010)

I am not very good at reading clinical trials, can someone help dissect this material for me

Re: In vitro/vivo trial Curcumin and/or Herceptin
 

Discussion
Compared with Herceptin, Curcumin had wide range of cytotocicity across Her-2 overexpressed and non-Her2 overexpressed breast cancer cell lines. Curcumin not only effective in the herceptin sensitve BT-484, but also exert its effect against the herceptin resistant SKBr-3(hr) cells

In this preliminary study, curcumin could reduce the cell viability of various breast cancer cell lines. The effectiveness of curcumin in the treatment of Her-2 overexpressed breast cance was illustrated in vitro BT-474 and SKBr-3(hr) cell lines and in vivo BT-474 xenograft model

Curcumin had comparable ability to inhibit cell proliferation, anti-mobility/mestastasis, anti-angiogenesis ability as herceptin and the potential to overcome herceptin resistance.
http://nanaymiriam.files.wordpress.c.../curcumin1.jpg

http://nanaymiriam.files.wordpress.c...a_moa_top1.jpg

http://nanaymiriam.files.wordpress.c...4/her_work.jpg

Re: In vitro/vivo trial Curcumin and/or Herceptin
 

Some of the BC patients I have talked to about the idea of conducting a laboratory trial comparing the effectiveness of either Curcumin only or Curcumin + Herceptin or Herceptin only for Her2+ BC patients, told me I am getting nuts or that I have high hopes for myself-just even thinking about it.. Apparently there has been a clinical studies conducted to compare the effectiveness of Curcumin only or Curcumin + Taxol (chemo drug) or Taxol only for mice with breast cancer. I hope that they perform these trials on humans as well. I hope a big organization like Life Extensions can sponsor these trials, since they have been selling Curcumin supplements anyway. This would mean that millions of women who cannot afford chemo and Herceptin can now have access to cancer treatments that are available in every kitchen.

Re: In vitro/vivo trial Curcumin and/or Herceptin
 

Other Clinical Trials related to Curcumin and how it compares with Taxol
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11694786
http://www.pdazzler.com/wp-content/p...absorption.pdf
http://www.curcumin.co.nz/pdf/Curcumin_And_Her2.pdf
Tested on mice with breast cancer (Taxol only or Curcumin only or Curcumin + Taxol)
http://www.mdanderson.org/newsroom/n...s-release.html
Anectodal evidences
http://curcuminresearch.org/response.html#breastcancer/

Re: In vitro/vivo trial Curcumin and/or Herceptin
 

References:
First-line Herceptin Monotheraphy
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11694786
Tests if Chemotherapy works without testing it on patients
http://www.chemofx.com/index.html
http://journals.lww.com/journalppo/A...tion_of.2.aspx
http://www.oncotypedx.com/

Do you think it is possible to use Oncotypedx or ChemoFX to find out if Curcumin works with Herceptin without testing it on human?

Re: In vitro/vivo trial Curcumin and/or Herceptin
 

Trasia,

I want to first commend you for being a dedicated caregiver to your mother. The question you posted seems to be in need of some kind of clinical trials/research to reach a conclusive finding. What 'I think' is of no value to the fact and the medical research.

One way to find out is perhaps to contact Dr. Dennis Slamon, the inventor of Herceptin. I would assume that before he figured out how Herceptin could be of benefit to Her2 positive breast cancer patients, he had already tested/studied curcumin as it is a known popular ingredient used in India. Again, my assumption is of no value here...

I do know that standard treatment for Her2 positive cancer works. My bc discovered in 2007 was almost exactly the same as your Mom's: Stage 2B with 2 lymphnodes involvement. I had 6 rounds of TCH (Taxatere, Carboplatin, Herceptin) and then 4 rounds of weekly Herceptin. I could not go on to complete the 1-year Herceptin because of lowered MUGA score. It's almost been four years, and I am happy to report that I've been doing well.

My 88-year-old Mother is a 13-year Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma survivor. I took a 20-hour flight back home to urge her to get the treatment. [She had put off the surgery for almost a year.]
I do know a local friend's mother who had refused to continue chemo after a couple of infusion for stage IV lung cancer. Her daughters took her to MD Anderson for a consult and she lived three more years, longer than the 6 months her local doctor had predicted.

Re: In vitro/vivo trial Curcumin and/or Herceptin
 

Jackie07:
I want to first commend you for being a dedicated caregiver to your mother.

Trasia:
Thanks for the acknowledgement. I guess in one way or the other this is my way showing gratitude for raising me.

Jackie07:
The question you posted seems to be in need of some kind of clinical trials/research to reach a conclusive finding. What 'I think' is of no value to the fact and the medical research.


Trasia
The clinical study comparing the effect of Taxol+ Curcumin and Curcumin on mice seemed to show the efficacy of Curcumin, and it needs to be tested on humans. And am quite glad that in the recently concluded SABCS, it seems there was a proposal to compare Curcumin only and Curcumin plus Herceptin only. But I wonder who will have an incentive to conduct such kind of tests? It also makes me wonder why this is being done in a Taiwan Hospital when the series of studies was iniatiated at MD Anderson by Dr. Aggrawal (one of Dr. Slamon's previous colleagues at Genentech)

Conducting clinical trials is an investment in itself. In the UK, there are NGO’s supporting clinical trials of this magnitude… I am wondering why no one is sponsoring these kind of tests? I would probably email Big Herba companies like Life Extension to sponsor things like this as well.

Re: In vitro/vivo trial Curcumin and/or Herceptin
 

Jackie07:
One way to find out is perhaps to contact Dr. Dennis Slamon, the inventor of Herceptin. I would assume that before he figured out how Herceptin could be of benefit to Her2 positive breast cancer patients, he had already tested/studied curcumin as it is a known popular ingredient used in India. Again, my assumption is of no value here...


Trasia:
I tried to contact Dr. Aggrawal—one of Dr. Slamon’s colleagues who helped him develop Herceptin, but no response yet. Interestingly, Dr. Aggrawal joined MD Anderson and conducted research on Curcumin for pancreatic cancer (human trials) and he has proven it to be effective. Based on one of his other interviews, he is also conducting research on Curcumin for breast cancer patients.

I agree that if Dr. Slamon knew that Curcumin works the same way or even better than Herceptin, he should have been more ethically inclined to tell the world—that there is a cheaper and even better way of curing Her2+ cancer, however, would it also contradict his own research/findings/years of research on Herceptin?—which will all be flushed down the toilet.. anyway, just a wild guess.

Re: In vitro/vivo trial Curcumin and/or Herceptin
 

Jackie07:
I do know that standard treatment for Her2 positive cancer works. My bc discovered in 2007 was almost exactly the same as your Mom's: Stage 2B with 2 lymphnodes involvement. I had 6 rounds of TCH (Taxatere, Carboplatin, Herceptin) and then 4 rounds of weekly Herceptin. I could not go on to complete the 1-year Herceptin because of lowered MUGA score. It's almost been four years, and I am happy to report that I've been doing well.


Trasia:
I have seen a lot of anectodal evidence of TCH and I am really glad it worked for you, this is the reason why I am not giving up on conventional medicine, it seems as years go by, oncologists seems to find the best chemo+ Herceptin combo (in 2008, women die of poor combinations of Herceptin, as well as of course Avastin- which am glad FDA has pulled away).

My mother’s initial MUGA scan is quite low and her initial treatment plan is not TCH but AC+ Herceptin. From a clinical perspective, am really quite worried about Herceptin’s SE for her heart… which is why am trying to find out if there is a better alternative to Herceptin. A few people said Tykerb is an alternative,but that would be another topic altogether.

Re: In vitro/vivo trial Curcumin and/or Herceptin
 

Jackie07:

My 88-year-old Mother is a 13-year Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma survivor. I took a 20-hour flight back home to urge her to get the treatment. [She had put off the surgery for almost a year.]

Trasia:
How is your mother now Jackie? For my mother, I think part of the reason why is is refusing conventional treatment is not just the side effects but the strain it will cause on our finances (she is not insured). If Dr. Slamon and colleagues knew that Curcumin works as well as Herceptin, they are doing the general public a disservice (and I hope they are not).. I hope its just a case of not getting enough sponsorship to conduct the clinical trial/studies on Curcumin, and I hope its not just because they are receiving fat pay checques from Genentech.

Re: In vitro/vivo trial Curcumin and/or Herceptin
 

Jackie07:
I do know a local friend's mother who had refused to continue chemo after a couple of infusion for stage IV lung cancer. Her daughters took her to MD Anderson for a consult and she lived three more years, longer than the 6 months her local doctor had predicted.

Trasia:
We visited another oncologist yesterday – literally dragging my mother, and told her its just a diagnostic test… the oncologist told me it might be too late for chemo and/or Herceptin, as it is usually done right after surgery (am sure other oncologists will probably think – this is probably not the case).. I found another onc who told me it might still be possible to put her on Herceptin, and if my mother is concerned about finances, she can join a trial on paclitaxel+ a new study drug+ Herceptin. My question is , is it possible to use ChemoFX and test these drugs on my mother’s breast tissue samples—instead of testing it on her??
And if they can actually test this new study drug + Herceptin on humans? Why are not they doing a similar study for Curcumin in combination to Herceptin or without Herceptin?
If Dr. Slamon and his colleagues has already figured Curcumin out—and ruled it out…what do they have to do with other cancer lines (other than Her2)—yes, they have found Herceptin to inhibit overexpression of Her2, and even found biomarkers (FISH and IHC) to test if you have overexpression of Her2. How about overexpression of Matrix metalloproteses, Cyclooxygenase-2, adhesion molecouse, chemokine and TNF?? All of which causes invasion tumor metastasis.


A quote from Dr. Aggrawal of MD Anderson

Because Taxol (paclitaxel) is so toxic, it activates a protein that produces an inflammatory response that induces metastasis. Curcumin suppresses this response, making it impossible for the cancer to spread. In fact, researchers found that adding curcumin to Taxol actually enhances its effect. Curcumin breaks down the dose, making the therapy less toxic and just as powerful while delivering the same level of efficacy.

Refer to the article here:
http://www.mdanderson.org/newsroom/n...s-release.html

Trasia:
Yes, the above study is only done in mice. What stops them from doing the same study on humans too? Why not use ChemoFX or Oncotype DX-- not only for drugs but also for natural substances such as Curcumin? And really, if they have already ruled this out-- why not publish the documents saying that Curcumin works for mice, but not for people.

I hope in the future we could also have biomarkers to test if we have overexpression of these cancer lines that causes metastasis… in the same way we have tests to see if we have ER/PR and HER2 overexpression.. (just thinking out loud).

Re: In vitro/vivo trial Curcumin and/or Herceptin
 

Trasia,

I hope your Mom can join the clinical trial mentioned by one of the oncologists. Your Mom can always use curcumin on the side (be sure to get approval from the doctor who conducts the trial.)

Re: In vitro/vivo trial Curcumin and/or Herceptin
 

Very interesting. Thanks !!!!!!!!!
I have been interested the things nature has to offer us for a long time.
We must remember that some chemos orginated from natural sources too-----taxol, taxotere, abraxane, navelbine and halaven come to mind right away.
There is no reason we can't find other things in nature to help us.
I have taken low dose curcumin for years. I also cook with tumeric regularly. I hope it is helping.

Re: In vitro/vivo trial Curcumin and/or Herceptin
 

hi elaine,
thanks for the acknowledgement. you are one special lady too.. 12 years! very inspiring..

my mother and I are both taking 800mg (8mg) of Bio-Curcumin from LEF-- she got tired of drinking fresh turmeric juice for the last 15 months..

we also put turmeric on our brown rice and most of our veggie and meat dishes...

looking forward to see you around here..

Re: In vitro/vivo trial Curcumin and/or Herceptin
 

hi jackie,
we have an appointment with the oncologist offering the COMPARE Clinical Trial (Herceptin+taxol+ a new drug under study) this coming Thursday..

my mother asked me today-- "why are we going to an oncologist again? we just saw one this week.. make sure that doctor will not ask me to take chemo!!"

so, I told her, "you are a very strong woman, no one can ask you to take anything against your will-- let us just see this oncologist and see what he has to offer us.."

she eyed me with suspicion...I was almost able to convince her that Herceptin is not chemo-- so I was able to drag her to the doctor.. but now she kept hearing Herceptin needs to be in combination with chemo..

Re: In vitro/vivo trial Curcumin and/or Herceptin
 

Trasia,

Please explain to your Mom that chemo = drug treatment. Taking an aspirin is, in a sense, a 'chemotherapy'. All the 'drugs' she's taken in the past can be viewed as 'chemotherapy'. Chemotherapy has side effect, just like all drugs have side effect. For example, aspirin can hurt the stomach...

There are pre-meds to prevent nausea and vomiting, and there are other pills she can take at home to prevent/stop any discomfort. And the process of losing hairs does not 'hurt' at all. They just fall off.

Maybe you can ask the doctor if she can take Tykerb which comes in a pill form and is quite effective in treating Her2 breast cancer.

But that clinical trial sounded like a real winner - I wouldn't let go of the opportunity if I were in your Mom's place.

Re: In vitro/vivo trial Curcumin and/or Herceptin
 

hi jackie,

thanks for the tip-- will try it on Thursday.
by the way, did you or anyone you know from this forum talked about absolute risk reduction and relative risk reduction using Herceptin and all possible combinations of chemo?

Re: In vitro/vivo trial Curcumin and/or Herceptin
 

Certain Breast Cancer Patients May Benefit From Combined HER-2 Targeted Treatment Without Chemotherapy

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/...ource=r_health#

Re: In vitro/vivo trial Curcumin and/or Herceptin
 

Trasia,

Interesting thread. Thanks for the great, in depth posts. Funny thing about chemo and curcumin. Chemo wrecked my G.I. tract, causing esophagitis and acid reflux. I was taking curcumin, but had to discontinue due to my severe heartburn and esophageal pain. I would think they would definitely have to do an injectable curcumin as they did with the mice as humans on chemo would very likely not be able to tolerate it orally.

Finally, you must remember there is little or no profit for drug companies, who are the primary funders of most clinical trials, for therapies with oral spices, an injectable version perhaps.

Re: In vitro/vivo trial Curcumin and/or Herceptin
 

I hadn't heard of Slamon investigating curcumin or a Slamon/Aagarwahl collaboration. But here's some bits on Curcumin: http://her2support.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=41672