VERY thought provoking

[Unregistered]

I post this with caution and trepidation.

It is one report only. I have not followed it up. At face value it looks like a very serious article.

It certainly is VERY thought provoking.

I would stress very strongly that if anybody with no other options is tempted it should only be considered in consultation with professional and with strong regular assessment and follow up - like everything else needs DOUBLE DOUBLE checking as to source etc.

High level fish oil supplementaion has on occasions been reported to have adverse effects through excess circulatory effects, thinning etc.


RB


http://www.cabnr.unr.edu/cabnr/newsletter/pdf/nutritionandcancer.pdf

[Lauriemn]

Hi RB,

If I am trying to cut down on the amount of omega-6 in my diet,what items should I be avoiding when I am looking at the nutritional information or list of ingredients for a food?
I already try to steer clear of anything with trans fats. should I looking at saturated fat?
thanks, Laurie

[Becky]

Other oils such as sunflower, corn (a big culprit since it is so popular), soybean oil and others(sometimes just labeled as vegetable oil). Use extra virgin olive oil almost exclusively but you can use some canola for high heat cooking (frying chicken or something like that). Saturated fats in small amounts are ok but they are not good for health overall but I do recommend butter over margarine when you need a product like that.


I like to think of my food intake as prehistoric (in a way) since "man" has not evolved as fast as the current food market has. Even our parents did not have access to corn oil etc and used butter or lard (but our parents were more physically active to deal with this not that frying everything in lard is good for you).

So... what did a hunter gatherer eat... fruits, veggies, nuts, grains, some fish, roots, tubers and sometimes the boys went out and did catch a deer now and again.
To make up the omega 3 in my diet, I eat fish, walnuts, flax and take a couple of Fish oil tablets to be sure.

I am sure others on this board who are even more knowledgeble will add to this.

Warm regards

Becky

[Lolly]

RB, I just wanted to let you know that because of your input to the board we've recently added a good quality omega-3 fish oil supplement to our regimen. I thought a good diet would keep things balanced, but I now think a good quality supplement is advisable, thanks to your input!

The article you provided the link for IS very interesting.

<3 Lolly

<3 Lolly

[Lauriemn]

I still have a question about how to judge how much omega-6 is in a product. I have 3 little children who eat very healthy,lots of fruits and veggies,whole grains,etc. But,who still like to have chips and other snacks sometimes.


I give them lowfat Triscuits,which are whole grain crackers,lots of fiber,no trans fats and only .5 sat fat. But yet, when I looked at the label, the second ingredient was soybean oil. Would these be high in omega-6? Is there a correlation between the amount of sat fat and the amount of omega-6? Are these alot lower in omega-6 than a potato chip that also has soybean oil, but 6 grams of sat fat?

Also, We eat lowfat cheese. It has 5 grams sat. fat, but none of the oils listed in its ingredients. Would that be high in omega-6?

Thanks, Laurie

[Unregistered]

As usual there are not simple answers and always exceptions but as a general rule all seed and nut oil with the exceptions of perillia, and flax are high in sixes.

Olive oil cold pressed virgin contains about 10% but varies upward. Processed olive oil may contain 50% n6 18:2.

There is a little chart on the Ben Best site and you can print the article out. It is a good reference source.

http://www.benbest.com/health/essfat.html

or more detailed information on a nutritional site with analyses of almost anything you can think of as to fats minerals etc

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-B00001-01c20jZ.html

I have included the link to cabbage for example (cabbages contain fats), but just use the search engine for what you want to look up. Note that fat content is expressed both by weight and calorie content.

Here is the one for a cup of canola. Look how much n6 18:2 linoleic is in just one cup, and half as much n3 18:3. When you are trying to balance three and sixes that presents a problem if you are not going to have to use lots of fish oil/ flax.

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-B00001-01c20A1.html

I think the message has to be SMALL quantities, some butter is ok, flax seed oil will help balance things, and avoid everything except olive.

This presents a huge problem as far as most processed food go -almost without exception - as the industry uses sunflower soy safflower etc which you can see are all high in six, and hence the problem. Until you become aware you have no idea how much you are consuming, and in unlikely things -olives in oil are often in sunflower - a salad labelled beans in olive oil read the label sunflower oil - add to that feta in oil, oil to roast your meat, salad dressings etc, and the amount is frightening.

It is reported in the US many people are at or over 14:1 n6 - n3, and some as high as 50;1 - and some of the higher ratios are those of us who were thinking how healthy we (me very much included) were with a cupboard full of top quality light oils from various seeds and nuts.

For optimum performance all the indications are you cannot avoid fish / fish oil. The body can make EPA DHA etc but does not from reports do it very well.

Women appear to have a higher need and convert n3 18:3 better than men to the longer chains. BUT NOTE omega three products can only be made from omega three sources - the three and six pathways do not cross over, so women as a minimum nees to ensure their bodies have adequate n3 18:3. A womans additonal need is unsurprising as the higher threes appear to be heavily wrapped up with the reporductive processes as well as all the uses common to the sexes.

The hunter gatherer analogy above is for me a valid one. It makes eating from prepared foods difficult until industry catches up. No simple solutions I'm afraid except check labels, and you will find yourself putting most things back and make your own.

Everything has fat in it bacteria, algae, cabbage, trees - it is just a question of how much and in what proportions. We are used to living on a bit of everything directly or indirectly.

The avoid comments on oils dont apply to the whole foods. It is the concentration that is the problem and our increasing use of oils which are with exceptions new to us in the last 100years - combined with a strong perception that they are very healthy for us in such quantities.


RE LOLLY COMMENT

Thanks Lolly a pleasure.

SATURATED FATS

There is an argument on saturated fats v unsaturated. Links have been found between consumers of a lot of saturated fat and poor heart/vascular health. BUT The body does need use make and store a range of saturated fats. Even phyto plankton have saturated fat as part of the balance. It stores better in the body as it is less prone to oxidisation.

SO they are not "poisons" - it is again balance and quantity - small.

On the plus side butter for example has low three and six and so does not disturb that balance. It also contains CLAs etc, and I have seen it suggested that fats help absorbtion of vit d etc.

So again I think natural, not heavily processed and serious moderation are key words.

Fat is a very highly concentrated enery source and so intake should be kept low, as well as all the other extensive functions they have in the body.



TRANS FATS

Trans fats produced by high temperatures (including in frying vats) appear to be a problem several sources suggest. There are suggestions the body simply has not seen some of these before and so has difficulty in handling them, dumping them where it can, or upsetting the digestive process. I really have not read or seen enough on the subject of trans fats and their metabolism to say if that is reflected in trials. But I have stopped using them now I understand how delicate and complex the bodies pathways are on precautionary grounds as they are generally high in n6, require significant processing, and are fats in a scenario where I am trying to control intake.

GENERALLY

Until much more money is invested in trials we will no have definative "proven" answers. I am afraid it is a bit like a mystery with clues and you have to look at the bits assess the risks and make up your own mind.

There is lots of information on the net, and a good range of books - check the indexes fro fat omega three etc. - you will soon find those who a passionate on the subject.

The subject cannot be divorced from general quality of diet but for me if asked what to do if nothing else in dietary terms it would be look at consumption of threes and sixes.

RB

[Unregistered]

Clearly as a starting point fish oil in fish is better than from a bottle.

Fish are very nutritious at all sorts of levels (wild little is good to sprats etc).

The key is to kep fat levels sensible down. It is reported that it is as much about balance between three and six as quantity.

And fat is full of energy and if in excess of needs the body like to store it so a moderate balance is likley to be better than balancing large amounts of n6, which brings it back to cutting out processed six sources.

There are also wider environmental implications as to availability of fish, and who and what we feed it to - should we feed it to ruminant live stock etc.

Clearly if everybody starts eating huge amounts of fish, current shortages, fishing of slow growing deep sea fish, etc has huge potential consequences.

RB.

[Unregistered]

What about Lard and Butter? I'm not kidding--my grandparent's never ate a vegetable oil in their lives and THEY ALL lived to be over ninety. Susie

[Unregistered]

As usual complicated.

See also recent post on milk intake.

See trial below, which as usual is complex, but does suggest that saturated fat is not the absolute villain it has been painted in general terms to us all.

High level of saturates with some polyunsatureates does lead to problems. High natural saturates with virtually NO polyunsaturates from extracted oils in processed food..... also likely OK - our hunter gatherer forbearers made it this far on what was likely often based on animal fats if living inland but life was a lot harder more seasonal and we ate a much greater variety.

Your grandparents proably did not have access to the high levels of omega six seed and vegetables oil that we see today.

At a guess humans do ok as carnivores - the best diet ? a much discussed subject - but hunter gatherers had to work hard for their food, and grain gathering was seasonal and hard work.

So the positon of some writers on the subject is that it is quantity, lack of nutritional quality, and access to food we have never had before (refined sugar, refined fats vegetables ols particularly....) is the trigger of many of the western diseases.

The generality seems to be the body does not need huge amounts fats a LITTLE of everything is good and BALANCE THE THREES AND SIXES and proabaly preferably err on the side of higher three.

On the butter issue for me cows have been around longer that the margerine factory and margerine contains highly processed vegetable oils ( as often do the "out of the tub" butters check the labels)

RB

http://www.her2support.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=23270

[Unregistered]

My grandparents lived in a clean world. I doubt if they ever came into contact with pesticides in their youth or pollution on the scale we did. they also grew alot of thier own food and hunted deer, squiirrall, rabbit, possum, ate alot of pork (sold pigs), lard, chuurned milk and butter.

[Unregistered]

And exerted a lot of effort in comparative terms to a trip down the supermarket gathering and rearing their food.

I remember reading an article that said that at the turn of the 1900s medical students in London made a real efforts to see any patient with heart disease when they appeared as the disease was so rare!.

We need reminding of these things.

Thank you

RB

[Becky]

Hope this link works for you.

Becky

[CLTann]

In the frenziness of having balanced omega 3 and omega 6 fats, let us not forget that the average life span in most of the civilized world has steadily improved in the past hundred years. We have been doing something right, be it the better medical facilities, be it the sanitary environment, be it the better prepared and marketed food, or the combination of all. Modern convenience may also have contributed to the longevity, such as automobile in lieu of walking, suburban living instead of congested urban setting, better medicines in place of voodoo excelsiors, etc. Personal selection of proper diet, exercise and emotional well-being are all important elements to better health and better resistance to abnormal hostile cells in the body.


ann

[R.B.]

Undoubted, and as reflected in the differentials in survival between countires and continents.

Clean water, organised society, constant food supplies, better accomodation against the elements, inoculations etc undoubted progress.

And doubtless longer life spans are a factor.

But the huge increase in western diseases is an issue too, and many of those are striking younger and younger, and by all accounts not seen in certain sectors where they live a long time too.

Thanks for the thought provoking response.

RB

[hutchibk]

I have talked to docs who strongly believe that many cancers we see these days are attributed more to the diet that we were fed from birth to teenage years.... when our bodies are growing, cells are immature, susceptible, and dividing quickly. That all of the additives, pesticides, growth hormones, hydrogenating processes, processed foods, sugars, etc that have become as much a part of our intake as the food itself, have wreaked havoc on the young cells of childhood, leading to unimagined and unintended and unreasearched consequences that we are seeing today.

[R.B.]

Yes I have read similar including you are what your mother ate - some links
of risks factors to mother diet in pregnancy...

But there is also significant evidence that things are improvable at any age. Gene expression is still altered by diet at any age. Everything is interlinked at multiple levels and mulitfacted.

The China Study Colin Campbell is really worth reading he cites some stunning results of small scale strictly controlled dietary intervention on middle aged adults. I have some questions if his conclusions on animal protein restriction are equally applicable to fish protein, and am still puzzling how much his observation relates to fats and how much t animal protein but as hunter gatherers we would not have had access in general to much meat and that would have been very lean (but would have had to fish more likely).

Thank you for your post

RB

[Adriana Mangus]

I'm with Becky. I eat fish, walnut, and take fish oil capsules 3 -1,000 mg ea.

What else is out there for us. Please post your response, Ladies.

[R.B.]

The key in this trial was balancing the omega threes and sixes.

It is important to make sure supplements include DHA. (maybe two grams a day)

Please click on search above and enter your search term.

Please discuss dietary changes with your doctor.
RB